Power Story Interviewing and Branding
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Kelly Duggan: [00:00:00] I'm Kelly Dugan, former HR executive turned career coach, and I'm here each episode sharing stories and strategies to help you build a career you love. Welcome back to the podcast everyone. I am so excited to have our guest, Rob Levin, joining me here today.
Rob, welcome to the podcast. Rob, you are a marketing consultant. You and I had the opportunity to meet during our time at WWE e, but you have worked at so many amazing companies like Priceline, ge, Nickelodeon. We're gonna talk all about it, uh, but. You also just started a very exciting pro project, which is you are the author of the best interview book ever, so you've got a lot to share with us on the podcast today.
Welcome to the podcast.
Rob: Thank you so much, Kelly. It's a pleasure to be here.
Kelly Duggan: We're so happy to [00:01:00] have you. So if you've listened to any of our episodes before, we generally start most of our guest podcasts the same way, which is a little bit an over of an overview of your career path, um, because it helps our listeners to understand all of the different opportunities that are out there.
I would love to hear, I know a little bit already, but I would love for our listeners to hear, take us through the SparkNotes version of where you started your career till today.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I appreciate it. So I've been told many, many, many times that my career path has been very interesting. Uh, which, which I, I always, I always hope is, is a positive thing. But I think one of the lessons for, for the people listening out there is that, uh, a career path can be very winding and very different and, and it just depends on circumstance, luck and, and hard work. So, uh, graduated college, uh, joined the Marine Corps I was in for, for seven years. And that was really sparked by, uh, just, just luck. I, I happened to meet somebody who had just come back [00:02:00] from Marine Corps officer training, uh, basic training. And it, the way he described that experience, it sounded like the hardest possible thing that anybody could do.
I mean, the things that he told me he did in training, I remember thinking to myself. No human being can do physically and mentally do the things that he's telling me he did. Uh, uh, there's no way. So I literally signed up the next day. I mean, I had hair down to the middle of my back. I had piercings. I had all sorts of reasons why I, I should not have been accepted, but I,
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh, Rob, I had no idea that that is such a different profile than the Rob that I met a few years back.
Rob: Oh, abso, the Marine Corps changes you? Yes, absolutely. But, uh, I've, I've always been a bit of a metalhead and, and I very much looked the part, uh, when, when I was in college. And, uh, uh, Yeah, so, so the Marine Corps set me straight, so to speak. I'm, I'm still a metalhead, but I, I, I look very professional,
Kelly Duggan: we just shorter hair.
Rob: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, [00:03:00] uh, yeah. So during the Marine Corps, I was in it for seven years and, uh, uh, uh, I, I actually ended up getting, getting hurt. And so I had to make a decision that I wasn't really ready for, right. 'cause I wasn't planning on getting injured, obviously. So I said, okay, what does my career look like now? And so the first job that I got out of the military was actually in finance of all things, uh, just 'cause I needed a job. And so I took that year in a finance role and I said, all right, what do I really want to do with my life? And, uh, during my MBA, I took my first marketing class. Uh, and, and this is gonna sound very silly, but I didn't know marketing was a thing. Uh, I didn't know it was a, it was a career choice. And so, just got lucky. Took this marketing class, and I remember calling my wife on the way home from this, this MBA class, and I said, sweetie, like I, I feel like I, I've just been struck by lightning. I, I, this is exactly what I wanna do with my life. And so, uh, I started looking for marketing jobs, ended [00:04:00] up getting a job at Priceline. I remember thinking after I got the offer, don't even know what SEO stands for, or PPC, like, I had to look up all these acronyms that are so common in marketing now. And uh, I said, okay, the best way for me to learn is to put some skin in the game. Uh, very long story short, went to the library, taught myself how to code, taught myself marketing concepts, built a website, started selling things, and that's how I got my hands on. Uh, learning in, in marketing. So from Priceline, uh, like you said, just went to ge, WWE, Nickelodeon, uh, startups, private equity, and, uh, and now, uh, consulting as a fractional chief marketing officer,
Kelly Duggan: Wow, not many people get that like lightning bulb moment of this is what I wanna do with my life. How, like what was it about marketing that made you feel that way?
Rob: So what I, what I loved, what I realized I loved then, and what I continue to love [00:05:00] now is that marketing allows me to, uh, uh, exercise two different parts of my brain that I really love. So there is the heavily analytical side, number one, right, where, uh. For a lot of people staring at an Excel spreadsheet and, and playing with numbers for, for two hours sounds horrible. Uh, to me, I get excited, right. So I, I was actually just, just on a meeting with a, with a client yesterday where we were, uh, talking about multiple linear regression modeling, and that's, that's a, a, a handful to, to say and, and. Uh, perhaps sounds like a total bore for, for some people. I got so excited. I was like, Oh I can't wait to play with these p values and this and that and the other.
And, uh, uh, because it, it leads to the, the reason why I love it is because it leads to these insights that I can come up with to help the company, uh, spend more wisely. Right? So, you [00:06:00] know, our Facebook platform might say. Hey, you're getting X number of conversions at this cost per, per acquisition, but the regression modeling will tell you what the truth actually is because it's using, uh, this, this, uh, sophisticated formula to, to figure out what the numbers really mean. So, the lightning bolt comes from, you know, exercising that analytical side that I love, but also getting those insights and then figuring out what do I do about it? Right? What's that creative side, you know, how do I take that, that statistical data and now create an Instagram campaign that's going to get more people to convert at a, at a more efficient rate? Things like that. So, I, I think part of what drew me to the Marine Corps and what I love about marketing. I love a challenge, right? And so when a client comes to me or a business comes to me and they say, Hey, our cost per acquisition is this, we need it to be half that. You know, my initial thought is, I dunno how to do that.
That's, that's, that's a huge number, right? and then, you know, [00:07:00] a, a, a second later, I get excited by that challenge and, and I think, all right, uh, I'm gonna figure it out. Here we go. Let's, let's do it.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Anybody who hears a story about the Marine Corps and thinks, how could any human do that? And immediately says, that's what's convinced me to sign up. I. I think that's all the evidence you need, that you love a challenge, Rob, that's,
Rob: that's,
it.
Kelly Duggan: I love that and honestly.
Rob: fun.
Kelly Duggan: I, my experience in marketing just comes from being a small business owner and doing what I call like baby marketing, right? I didn't realize all of the analytics that go into marketing until I started to get into this role and understand that it really is, um, a perfect place for a creatively minded and an analytically minded person.
Uh, there's so much there. We talked a little bit about your career progression and all of these really big name organizations that you've had a chance to work in and you've had to interview to get into all of those different [00:08:00] incredible organizations. Uh, which brings us to your interviewing book. Uh, why don't you share with us a little bit about how that book came to be and how it was built over your career.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I'm excited to talk about it. 'cause I, I, it's, it's already helped a lot of people and I'm, I'm excited for, for more people to, to hear about it. So the origin story for, for the book is. Uh, when I left the Marine Corps. So what, what what the military does is they, they have a class, uh, a separation class, and it is essentially, uh, how to be a civilian, uh, right?
Because if you, you know, if all you've known is, is the military, the civilian world is very, very different from, from that. And, and there's a prep, uh, that's, that's required to transition smoothly. And in that class. One of the, one of the instructors told us, Hey, one of the best ways to, to succeed in an interview is to try to anticipate the questions that are going to, to be asked and then spend time preparing a [00:09:00] perfect answer for, for those questions. And, I said, okay, let me, let me try that. Right? And so once I, I made my document, I, I, uh, customized it for the roles that I was interviewing for. And I just, uh, I mean, at I at the time, I think I wrote, I, I wrote them out. I, I didn't even type 'em up and print 'em out. Like I wrote all this out, uh, shows you how long ago this was. But, uh, so I wrote it out and then I just studied my notes and I kept going over it and I kept practicing and I kept revising. And, you know, at the time I might have had five to 10 interview questions that I expected to get. uh, I ended up nailing every interview. So I, I don't
Kelly Duggan: Wow.
Rob: how many companies I interviewed with, but I got an offer from every single one.
Kelly Duggan: Wow.
Rob: so I, said, okay, this, this process is working for me. And so throughout the rest of my career, for 20 plus years of, of interviewing, anytime I got a question that, [00:10:00] uh, during an interview that was not in my document. I added it to my document after the interview, and I, I thought about and wrote out a, a terrific answer. My process then evolved to, uh, once I got a new, uh, a new opportunity, I would anticipate more questions, keep adding questions and, and answers to this document. This document ended up being, uh, I think it was like 75 pages of. Uh, questions and, and answers and prep for, for these interviews. And so, I mean, the bottom line is I've gotten an offer from almost every single interview process I've ever gone through in the last 20, 25 years. And it's all because of that prep from this document. the, the final part of this is I, I've been giving that document away, right? Anytime I see somebody on LinkedIn that says, Hey, I'm, I'm looking, or I, you know, I'm, I'm outta work. I, I DMed them, Hey, uh, I'll add you to this Google Doc and, and just shoot me your [00:11:00] email. Somebody eventually came back to me and said, Hey, this is amazing, and it got me, uh, it got me this job. You should turn this into a book. I'd never thought of it. And I said, yeah, I should turn this into a book. So, uh, so I took that document and what I did was, uh, I added to each question. An explanation for why the answer i, I have is a good one.
And then a framework for how a reader can create their own answer and customize it to the, to the role, to the industry, to the company, et cetera, et cetera. And, uh, and yeah, that's, that's the book. And so, you know, I call it the best interview book ever because, uh, like I said, I mean, I've, I've gotten an offer from almost every job that, that I've interviewed at.
So I do think it's, it's, it's at least one of the best interview books ever.
Kelly Duggan: I, I completely agree with that. I actually, I refer my clients to it all of the time who are about to go through the interview process because it, what I love about it, it, it not only is these examples, but you also break down the different [00:12:00] types of interview questions in there. Like you can understand that even if you're not preparing, is it.
You have done the impossible, Rob, of actually going down and tracking, I think almost every interview question that can be asked. Most people, um, haven't, haven't had the thought, especially before, thought early in their career to do that. Um, and can't necessarily without your book prepare for every single possible question.
What I love about what you've done is you've pointed out that there are types of interview questions that you can prepare for. Uh, do you mind just talking us through a little bit about what those types are, because I think they can be so helpful for anybody that's going through the interview process.
Rob: I, I, I love that you call that out. And, and what was interesting to me as I was writing the book is, you know, I, I started by going through all my questions and I said, oh, actually, I think it would be helpful for readers to understand the, that, that every interview question, regardless of, of what the industry is, regardless of what the role [00:13:00] is, actually falls into three different buckets. And, and there's a concept that I learned, uh, when I was a Marine Corps recruiter, the question behind the question or the why behind the why. And so I believe that a, any interview question falls into three different buckets. And, and here's why they're asking that question. So, so bucket one is, can you do the job? Right. Uh, if you're an accountant, are you good at Excel? Right? If it can you count, right? Uh, if you're interviewing for a, a, a teaching position, can you present in front of people, right? Can you write a lesson plan? Can you actually just physically and mentally do the job that you're applying for? Uh, that's bucket one. two is actually, uh, can you make the hiring manager's job easier? And I think this is where a lot of people. Uh, this is the, the bucket that surprises a lot of people because you have to understand that in a corporate environment and, and in a corporate [00:14:00] role, that person sit, that interviewer sitting across the table from you, that that interviewer, uh, the hiring manager, uh, uh, they want you to make their lives easier. They're busy. Think about how busy you are. The hiring manager feels like they're just as busy, if not busier, right? So if you can convey, hey, I can save you time, or I can take things off your plate. Uh, I can do things that you're currently spending time on so that you don't have to worry about it, and I can make your life easier. That is a, a, a huge bonus during an interview to make sure that you get that offer, right. The third one is, is, is, uh, to, to be a little cheeky. Uh, are you a big pain in the butt, right? So, uh, you have to realize, and this, this goes along a little bit with bucket two, right? Because. I have interviewed plenty of people when I was in corporate roles and I was hiring people for, for my team. Uh, and I just remember hearing some things that, that just sent a red flag to me that said, oh, this [00:15:00] person kind of sounds like, uh, uh, they're gonna need a lot more hands-on, or a lot more management or, uh, uh, or something like that. So you wanna make sure that you convey. easy to work with. I'm not gonna be a problem with, uh, teammates.
I get along with people. I'm not gonna be an HR problem, things like that. Right? So, so again, you, you, every question falls into one of those three buckets.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, and, and to your point, I think preparation is key, but even if you are going into an interview with no preparation, the the bottom line thing that you wanna do is ask yourself, what is the question behind the question? I think that's such an insightful piece because. If you can understand what they're trying to learn from you based on that question, then you can craft the story that's going to actually have them hire you, uh, versus just staying on that surface level.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And I, and I think you bring up [00:16:00] a, a that, that sparks, uh, another point that I put in the book that I think is really important that a lot of people miss is that interviews are a two-way street. Right? You know, this is also your opportunity to figure out, I wanna work there? Do I wanna work for this person? Uh, but also. for, feel free to ask for clarification, right? I mean, if there's a question and you're curious why somebody is asking that question, I would ask that. Right? You know, I would say, interesting that, that you're asking that. Can you help me understand why you're asking that? So I can give you the, the, an answer that, that fully answers the question.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Rob: very valid.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: and again, it's a two way street and, and you know, you want to make sure. That you're answering that question behind the question, so feel free to ask for clarification during that process.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, I, I completely agree. When I, I started my career in recruiting and honestly, I think I, I may have still been in recruiting Rob, when we first [00:17:00] started working together at, at wwe. Yeah. I was like, so long ago at this point. Um, but. Truly. The interviews that I was always most impressed by when I was in that recruiting role were people who would come in and drive the conversation in the right direction, right?
Like they already had a pretty good idea of what I wanted out of that, and.
Rob: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: could do a lot more listening than having to prompt them into talking, but they weren't talking in circles about things that didn't matter, right? There's a big difference between coming in and being an active participant and driving in the right direction versus coming in and being all over the place.
Uh, and I think your book really helps people to strike that balance, uh, in a very real way.
Rob: Yeah, Yeah, and I love that you brought that up, right? Because again, like I've just spoken to so many people and I try to mentor a lot of people on interview prep and. they find it surprising when I tell them that this, this two-way street [00:18:00] concept, because I think a lot of people go into interviews in, in sort of a passive, you're asking me questions and I'm answering, and that's the way it is mindset.
But know, part of asking those questions, like I said, is, is to make sure that you're. Uh, meeting the needs of the interviewer, right? So something that I, I always, always, always ask upfront, uh, at, at, or I try to weave, I always weave into a question as I'm answering. Uh, I ask questions about, you know, what are your biggest pain points right now? Right? You wanna find that out from the hiring manager in the first five minutes, because I will, once I have that answer, and I know that the one or two things that are keeping them up at night, I weave in. To the rest of the interview, this is how I'm gonna solve that for you. Right? So if you, if, if you know that, you know, I really drive that home, whether it's through, uh, my power story or just any other answer, I find a way to convey I'm gonna solve your problems.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, a hundred percent. [00:19:00] And asking the question in the first five minutes instead of saving all of your questions for the interviewer, for the end game changer.
Rob: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: Because there's no time if you
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: at, you know, when you have five minutes left, there's no time for that.
Kelly Duggan: No time whatsoever. And one of the things that you have alluded to, but I wanna reiterate too, 'cause I think until you're on the other side, you don't realize if you're the hiring manager, you're very invested in that interview process. The hiring manager is usually one person that you interview with out of maybe an interview lineup of.
Three, four or five other people. It's very possible that those other people like are running into that interview conversation, uh, looking at the resume on the way and just aren't going to be invested the same way that a hiring manager is going to be invested. How can candidates approach interviews with folks who aren't the hiring manager that it's gonna leave an, an impression when someone might be a little more distracted in the conversation?
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. And [00:20:00] so this happens all the time and, and it's happened to me, right, as a hiring manager where. Oh, I have a 10 30 interview with, with Joe or Sally, and I had, you know, I was booked from nine to 10 30, right. And I don't have time. I saw the resume, I glanced over it, and I'm literally reading it as I'm walking to the, to the interview
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: to remember who I'm talking to.
Right? So, I, I, I, I, I would go back to, uh, part of what I was saying before about that. So first of all, the interview prep, right? You want to understand. is this person? What is their title and what is their role in, in the organization? Right. The, the hiring manager has decided that Joe or Sally is a good person to talk to.
You try to figure out why. Right. So for me, as a marketing professional, I would often get interviewed by, by the head of product, for example. And because I was a product manager, I know how product managers think. Even if you weren't, uh, you know, whatever that title is, try to figure out why, why is [00:21:00] this person, why has this person been selected to talk to me? What do I think is important to them? Right. Uh, so for a product manager and, and me coming in as a, as a VP of of marketing. I'm, I'm assuming, oh, this person wants to know that I'm gonna be easy to get along with that. Uh, I, I know how to write product requirements in a clear way, uh, that I, I get along with others.
'cause often, you know, there, there can be some conflict between marketing teams and product teams, right? So I want this person to understand that. Hey, I know my stuff, but I also know that I'm a sample size of one and I'm collaborative, right? I want your feedback if I'm designing a new landing page or, or something like that. So try to figure out why they're, they're in that hiring process. Uh, that's number one. And number two, ask them, right? So in the first couple minutes of, of meeting somebody, I will weave in the question, or, or I'll just ask right off the bat, uh, you know, something to the effect of, oh, tell me how you work with the, with the marketing team. [00:22:00] Right? Or tell me how you work with, with this team, or how would you and I work together? That question usually gives me a ton of insight. And again, I will also ask that what keeps you up at night? Because that answer from the head of product or the head of of. Uh, community is going to be different or sometimes the same, but often very different from what the hiring manager has to say and then tap into your experience and all of your, uh, uh, many of your answers for the rest of the interview should weave in, here's how I'm going to make your life easier.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: or head of community, or head of whatever.
Kelly Duggan: I agree. I think I often think of interviewing as a little, not that I've ever surfed a day of my in my life, but I, I imagine what surfing is like, like you have a, you know, the technical skills going into it, but there's a lot of, in the moment shifting based on the conditions and, and what's happening. So I hear, um,
Rob: Yes.
Kelly Duggan: how I, that's how I picture [00:23:00] interviewing to be and, and I think the people who do interviewing the best, that's the approach that they take.
Question for you. So we've talked about the importance of preparation. How can you prepare in a way that still leaves room for that in the moment decision making based on the conversations that are happening in the interview so that you're not so rehearsed that you can't. React to that information you're getting as input.
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. I, I, I think there are two th two parts, uh, two parts to the answer to that question. I think part one is. What I love about my, my Questions document and what I love about the book is that it's incredibly comprehensive. So I'm, at this point in my career, I'm very, very rarely caught off guard. yeah. I mean, I'm consulting now. I'm not interviewing anymore for, for corporate roles, but I am interviewing for, I had an interview on Monday for a fractional CMO role, right? So, Because I've prepared [00:24:00] so much for, for so many years and used this document consistently, uh, I am able to piece, if I get a question that I'm, that is not in my document, I can piece together answers from different, uh, uh, questions in my document and fully answer that question. I think also something that's very valid is during an interview, if I get caught like that, I will sometimes say. Gimme 10 seconds to, to formulate the best possible answer here and, and pull from, uh, from, from my experience. And I'll take five seconds of silence. Totally fine. Right? That's never hurt me before. Uh, and again, you know, I'll just reiterate, I, I've gotten an offer from almost every interview process I've ever been, I mean, I've gotten offers for jobs that. I. was not qualified for, and eventually said, no, I don't think I, I can, I can do this. Uh, take five to 10 seconds. And, and, and I think that's, that's totally valid. the other, the other part as far as not coming across as, as rehearsed, [00:25:00] the way that I've created my document is, and, and written the answers out is in my voice and also. I've tried to write those answers in, in a way that I would actually say it. So there's, there's, you know, I'm using contractions, I'm, I'm, you know, I will literally say the answer out loud and then type out exactly what I said. Right. Uh, because again, you don't wanna come across as, as rehearsed and, and you know that that can come through that you, you've got this pat answer and if you do that, you have to be prepared for the follow up. So One of the cool things in the book that I've added in there is, you know, you know, here's the question from the interviewer.
Here's the perfect an what I think is the perfect answer. Uh, then I will add, be prepared for these two questions that might be a follow up for you. So, you know, in short. as much as you can so you can pull answers from different sections and also write out your questions in, in the same way [00:26:00] that you would actually say it.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. One of the concepts that you talked about too, Rob, is this idea of a power story. I, I talked with my clients about their career hero story, two different versions of the same thing, right? Story plays such an important role in interviewing. Well, um. Talk to me about what you talk about in the book around the Power story and how people can have their power story in their back pocket.
Rob: Yeah.
absolutely. And, and, and what I would say to to folks listening right now is if you've never heard of the concept of the hero's journey. Google it right now. Go down the rabbit hole. It's amazing. I mean, for, for, uh, a fantasy, uh, sci-fi nerd like me, it is just, it's awesome, right? So Star Wars, for example, is a perfect example of the hero's journey. And so, uh, the power story heavily borrows from, from the concept of hero's journey, where, excuse me, you're, [00:27:00] you're, uh. I say in the book many, many times that human beings are hardwired to be attracted to stories. So if you can tell a story versus giving an answer, that's always going to help. And part of a story is, uh, uh, the dragon, right?
So the dragon is the problem, right? Uh, you know, in Star Wars it's the empire, right? And, and, and things like that. Uh. You, you want to convey the problem you want to convey. How did you feel once, once you know this problem was, was laid out in front of you? Uh, and then you want to talk about, you know, another part of the hero's journey is. You know, that, that initial feeling of, oh, maybe I can't do this, or this is a huge challenge, right? Uh, but then you want to talk about how did I solve for this? What are the steps that I went through who helped me along the way? Right? Who was your OB one Kenobi
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: helped you along the way? Uh, and then you want to get into, you know, the [00:28:00] outcome, what happened after, because you found a way to figure it out. The point of the power story is to convey to the hiring manager, this is why I am so incredibly awesome and you need to gimme an offer like in the next five minutes because you don't wanna let me get away. Right?
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: everything about what makes you incredible. Uh, this is gonna sound cocky or, or whatever. firmly believe I am one of the best growth marketers on the planet. And, and that's not just blowing smoke. Like my numbers show that. And I can tell you several power stories that, that show you and demonstrate, this is how I overcame this huge, huge dragon, right? And this is why you need to hire me because nobody else can do this. power story, the, the result, the end output of, uh, of, of my power story is how I came up with a marketing campaign that ended up doubling subscribers for WrestleMania year over year for WWE network. Very few other [00:29:00] people on the planet can do that. I am absolutely convinced of that. And, and I have this whole, uh, story about how, you know, I got pushback on, on my campaign plan and eventually broke through and we were able to execute it and here's this massive, massive result. So, you know, what I tell people in the book is come up with that power story, figure out, you know, what was this huge dragon in your career that you slayed because you know you are the best. on the planet, or you're the best recruiter on the planet. Right? And, and, you know, tell the story in that hero's journey arc.
And that's, that's your power story.
Kelly Duggan: I absolutely love that, and I am gonna say if for anyone who is struggling to do that, because it's not the easiest thing to think about your. Day to day, particularly corporate job and, and apply it to a hero's journey. Um, but I do have a tool to help folks do that as well. Um, I, I'll
Rob: nice.
Kelly Duggan: do a link down below.
It kind of breaks down the, the hero's journey pieces [00:30:00] with some reflection questions to help people craft their own career hero story. Um, so I'll, I'll put a link in this podcast for anybody who is in need of that, because that power story as you share in the book is. Key and I, you mentioned having multiple of them.
Um, that can apply to many different questions, but you wanna make sure you're always hitting on those, you know, that's why people hire people, uh, not because you could answer, tell me about yourself in the perfect way. Right? It's because you told that story.
Rob: Oh a hundred percent. And, and what's funny is, uh, even if nobody asks a question that is relevant, where, where delivering the power story is relevant, tell it anyway. Uh, I find I just, you know, I'll answer a question and then I'll, you know, I'll transition in, in a way like. Oh, that reminds me of this, this project I worked on at WWE e and I just tell the story, right?
You want to tell that story no matter what. And if, if your story is good enough, going to care [00:31:00] that you weren't actually answering a question. They're going to be on the edge of their seat thinking, tell me more. I have to hire this person.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I love that big, big, big fan of storytelling, particularly when it comes to the interview process. I wanna transition us a little bit, if that's okay with you, Rob, because I think a lot of our listeners, um, one of the struggles is, how do I get to the interview process? Right? We are in a, uh, the tail end of a difficult market for candidates at this moment.
Uh, we are, have challenges of ai. On the recruiting side, we have how people are navigating AI on the candidate side. Um, we have a sluggish market. You know, it's really been very difficult for people to get their foot in the door to interview. One of the things that I talk about with my clients is the importance of having a personal brand and to be able to get you into the conversations that can lead to [00:32:00] interviews and having that network.
You and your LinkedIn presence, I think are one of the best examples of someone who is maximizing the potential of LinkedIn to be able to connect, share your story in a very organic way, share your expertise in an organic way, and connect with people for the joy of connecting with them, not because you want something from them.
So talk to me a little bit about your journey with LinkedIn and, and how you show up on LinkedIn.
Rob: Yeah.
absolutely. So, so one of the things that I have found is that I think about marketing and growth in, in a way that's, that's different from, from a lot of people. Uh, I think heavily influenced by that analytical side. And also, uh, you know, I went through an exercise with a, with a, uh, with an executive coach about two years ago. And part, as part of that extra part of that engagement, we, we honed in on what are my personal values and one of my personal value, one of my core val, uh, five core values [00:33:00] is helping others. And I've been mentoring people for years and years and years. People, you know, in marketing, people in product and, and things like that. And, uh, maybe it's selfish, but it just, it makes me feel good to, to help somebody out. Right. And, you know, helping people find a job or, uh, you know, I have a, a, a very, uh, a very good friend now who, uh, our relationship started out as a mentorship and now, uh, I mean, we talk every week and, you know, it's, it's, it's just a lot of fun, uh, to chat with her.
But I love Helping people with things that just come so easy for me, right? And they come easy for me because I've been a marketer for 20 plus years, right?
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: so, uh, you know, helping people is, is something that. just feels good. So what I found on LinkedIn is, uh, you know, when I come outta these mentoring sessions and, And I you know, some piece of information that I've given is really helpful. I'll post that on LinkedIn. Hey, if you're facing problem X, here's what I would do. Uh, or [00:34:00] here's what, what has worked for, for me in the past and, and things like that. So, uh, I, I, I post quite a bit on, on LinkedIn and especially about SaaS and subscription growth. Uh, I post about consulting and starting a business.
I post about, uh, you know, interview tips and, and things like that. I think especially in, in the market that we've been experiencing for, for the past while now, and, and, and certainly currently. Uh, you know, one of the best feelings I have is of, uh, somebody coming back to me and saying, Hey, I used your book, or, or, you know, I used your Google questions and I nailed the interview and I got the job right?
Because I've been in that position before, right before WEI was outta work for. I mean, luckily it was only four weeks. But I didn't know it was only gonna be four weeks. But, uh, you know, I was outta work and stressed and, and, you know, I had a baby daughter plus, uh, uh, an older son it's incredibly stressful.
So if I can help somebody with some of that content, uh, nail that interview, that's, that's awesome. You know, I, I, that, [00:35:00] uh, what, what I've said to people before and what I truly believe, uh, I, I do a lot of reading and stoic philosophy. one of the core tenets of, of stoic philosophy is, uh, uh, what's good for the hive is good for the bee. And what that means to me is, uh, you know, if you have an opportunity to help other people, you should. Right? And, and there's a quote from, from Spider-Man. Uncle Ben says, uh, you know, if, if, if you can help others, you have an obligation to do so and. also a comic book nerd and, and I follow Spider-Man philosophy, but, uh, yeah, it just, it makes me feel good to, to, to do those things.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. And I just wanna add, 'cause if you're listening to this podcast right now and you're thinking like, well, that'd be great if I had a way of helping people. You do. I, I am. I firmly believe every single person listening to this podcast right now has a unique value, has something that they can give.
You just have to start giving it and, and figure out what that unique [00:36:00] value is for yourself. But I, I promise you, you have it. 'cause I know that's something I run into with my clients a lot of, like, well, I don't have anything to say. And you know, there, there's a story there. Trust me. Just, you just have to find it.
Rob: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, and what I have found interesting to that point in consulting is. There are, there are, uh, there are things in marketing that are unbelievably easy for me, uh, that I didn't realize are incredibly hard for 99% of people, right? I mean, something as simple as running Google ads, right?
Setting up campaigns, writing ad copy, setting up the right keywords. It is unbelievably easy for me to to, to do that and get incredible results for people. There are so many people out there for whom Google Ads is just a complete mystery. It's Greek to them. They have no idea how to do it. [00:37:00] And,
Kelly Duggan: I am.
Rob: I mean, right. just, you
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: think about the, what I would say to the listeners, think about the cool things that, that you've done in your career that are, just think about what you're doing every single day. You know, if, if, uh, I don't know if you're an accountant, right? I mean, you know, uh, setting up a spreadsheet that's hard for a lot of people.
Right. And, and, uh, it's, you know, the, if you're a couple years into your career. The things that you did in year one that are not, that are not hard for you in year five. Uh, you know, find some people who are in year one right now, right. You can help them with, with some of the lessons that you have learned. And, uh, Yeah.
it's, it's been a, it's been a real surprise for me just learning I know, I guess.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. And you know, on that journey, because I know you started consulting on the side of a full-time job, right. You know,
Rob: Correct.
Kelly Duggan: so it did, it did consulting for you kind of [00:38:00] come from this joy of helping people and next thing you know, you were a consultant.
Rob: It, it did actually. So what's what's funny is, you know, I alluded to that executive coach that, that I was working with before, uh, once we did the exercise of finding my core values, one of which being helping others, the part of that exercise was okay. What career paths can, can, uh, align with those core values. And so, uh, you know, I love helping others. I love speed. I love variety. I love a challenge. And I just kept, kept coming back to consulting as a career path, uh, because it, it, I figured it would, and it certainly has offered me, uh, all of those opportunities to really live out those, those core values. So yeah, it's been, it's, it's. It's been a wild ride. Uh, a lot of ups and downs, but, but overall up, which has been great. And, yeah, just, just really allows me to live out those, those core [00:39:00] values. I mean, I'm, I'm happier than I've ever been.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. That's pretty, that's the cornerstone of probably all of my coaching programs is coming up with what is your unique value and in our Determine Your Direction program, I think follows a very close path to what you just mentioned around. How do you take that value and figure out what career do you want, what do you wanna do, what do you want to give in this world, um, to find that career path for yourself and to be able to do that.
But it's so hard to do that when you haven't done the work of figuring out what that unique value is. It's, it sounds like that was exactly your experience.
Rob: Yeah.
A hundred percent. Right. And, and you know what? What you just described reminds me of. Some of the, some of the paths that I take consulting clients down where, you know, they want to go, they wanna do stuff and, and you know, almost every founder and CEO that I have ever spoke, that I've spoken to in the last two years [00:40:00] has said to me some form of the statement, we don't have a strategy.
We're just trying lots of things. Right. And you know, my thought is, well, that's your first problem. Stop trying lots of things and let's, let's create a strategy together. And what you just described, Kelly, I think is a perfect example of, you know, let's figure out, let's do some introspection. Let's figure out the strategy first. we try, prioritize a list of things to try and then execute,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Rob: Let's, let's do it from a base of strategy and, and, uh, uh, rigorous thinking. Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Totally, totally. And we're so hesitant, I think, to apply that kinda strategy to our own lives and passions and career path because one, we're busy, um, and 'cause we're doing this in everything else that we're doing and trying to keep all of these balls in the air. But I think you're a perfect example of what happens when you take that step back and really identify your for yourself.
What is it that I wanna do? How am I gonna get there and take action [00:41:00] that supports that career strategy in your life?
Rob: Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, I under, I completely understand how somebody can think or, or, or feel like taking that step back is, is a real step back. And, and, you know, I don't wanna pause, I want to go, uh, you know, one of, one of the, the sayings we have in the military is slow, is fast. And, and what that means to me is take the time for that careful strategic planning so that you can execute faster later. because you're, you're doing that overall, you're moving faster and you're moving in the right direction, right? Because doing lots of things all over the place, you know, it, it, it doesn't get you where you, where you want to go in, in the timeframe that you're looking for. You, you have to have that strategy.
You have to do that introspection. And, and, and figure out that plan first.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. Probably, if you're open to it, I'd love to have you back on to talk a little bit about [00:42:00] how you can utilize consulting as a tool for helping you build a career that you love, whether it's alongside a corporate job, whether it ends up being your full-time passion. I think I, I think you and I could probably go a whole other 90 minutes just on that topic.
Rob: I would love that. Yeah. That would be a lot of fun. This has been great.
Kelly Duggan: Great. Well, Rob, how can people find your book? How can people follow you on LinkedIn? Where is the place to find you?
Rob: Yeah, so, so LinkedIn is definitely the place to find me. It, it's, uh, uh, I, I have it open constantly and, and, and always, uh, going back and forth with people. So, find Rob Levin on LinkedIn, uh, and also for my book. Go to best interview book.com or find me on, on LinkedIn and I'll, I'll direct you to the, to the right place.
Kelly Duggan: All right. You must be a marketer with that. You, you knew that domain was gonna be available, right? Yeah.
Rob: Oh yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Rob, thank you so much for taking the time for joining the podcast today. I really appreciate it.
Rob: Absolutely. This was so much fun. Thank you, Kelly.
Kelly Duggan: Thanks. I'll talk to [00:43:00] you soon.
Rob: Thanks.
