Executive Presence Deep Dive with Joanna Levering
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Kelly Duggan: [00:00:00]
Welcome to the Love What You Do podcast. I'm Kelly Dugan, former HR executive turned career coach, and I'm here each week sharing strategies and stories to help you take action and create a career you love. Welcome to the podcast everyone. I am so excited to have our guest here with us today, Joanna Levering.
Welcome to the podcast. Joanna is a leadership and presence consultant. She's a coach. She is an amazing facilitator, and she's gonna be here today talking to us all about how we can increase our executive presence, why it's important, and share a little bit about the amazing career path that made you an expert in all of these areas.
So welcome, Joanna.
Joanna Lovering: Thanks so much for having me.
Kelly Duggan: Of [00:01:00] course. Thank you for being here. So I start almost all of our podcasts off with the same question to ground us. Tell us a little bit about the career path that got you to where you are today, which is doing all of this amazing coaching and consulting on executive presence.
Joanna Lovering: Well, you know, as I think back through my career, there are a few common threads. So, you know, in, in, instead of just doing a chronology of my resume, what I wanna make sure that people know is what's really important when you tell your story in, in my opinion, is to talk about. The values and the common threads that we can see throughout.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: I think about it, I have a common thread of wanting to help people reach their potential and feel more grounded in that potential. I also have a common thread of aesthetics [00:02:00] and loving being creative with what you can see with your eyes, and I love being around people. am so extroverted that I get so much energy just from being around people. my career started in the world of beauty marketing in cubicle land. I was working at L'Oreal. I. I decided to go back to graduate school for organizational psychology where I focused on leadership development and coaching. And since then I've worked in both corporate and smaller startup arenas as a facilitator and a coach.
For the world of leadership development and talent management, so helping people through courses like management courses, as well as one-on-one coaching, helping them be better leaders.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: [00:03:00] managers too, and there is a difference between leading and managing, but really just stop sucking at being leaders. Get your communication skills under control and be more consistent and in front of your team to garner trust that. Is what I do. Like I said, I've done it in larger corporate arenas as well. Like, like JetBlue, Tiffany and Company NBC Universal, and then some smaller startups like Daily Burn. and now here I am, eight years in, I've had my own business.
Wow.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh, that's incredible. I, Joanna, you and I met it, it through coaching, actually we did some resume work together as you were starting to really break into a lot of facilitation and. I had the opportunity of getting to hear your career story in such detail. Um, and you have one of the most [00:04:00] fascinating backgrounds of anybody that I've had the joy of getting to work with.
I I, no, I, I,
Joanna Lovering: gosh.
Kelly Duggan: I truly mean that yet. Like, 'cause you have done it all.
Joanna Lovering: good thing or a bad thing.
Kelly Duggan: It's a great thing. Oh, well, for a career nerd, it is an amazing thing.
Joanna Lovering: sure.
Kelly Duggan: just, the diversification that you've had, not only with the, the corporate clients you've gotten to work with in full time, time capacities, but also like getting to bring in this like entertainment industry flair and the fashion passion that you have.
Like, uh, it is what I think really makes you such a unique personality to help people with their executive presence because you're coming at it from so many different angles.
Joanna Lovering: Thank you. Well, you know, my background in leadership development, you know that it's organizational psychology is my education. PS my undergrad was in performance as well,
Kelly Duggan: Ah,
Joanna Lovering: stuff. Okay.
Kelly Duggan: very nice.
Joanna Lovering: [00:05:00] very, very used to being on stage. And the fact of the matter is, is that no matter where we are, whether we're physically in the room or. On a Zoom room, when we are at work, we are on stage. Whether we like it or not. Some believe me, I know some days you, you don't want to be on stage, but people are looking and so my thought is why not take some of those data points that people are taking in about you and frankly, making a judgment about you and why not ratchet them up a little bit or optimize them so that you can.
Influence people more positively have more trusting work relationships. Why not? So there are ways to do that, it how you speak, how you act, as well as how you look. And I know that we'll get into it. So, Yeah, I, I [00:06:00] love the fact that my career has been a patchwork quilt. I've always been that type of person. Um, and it kind of melds all of the things that I love. I love working with people. I love helping them reach their potential and feel confident in it, and I love that there's a creative aspect that I need in my life as well.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that patchwork quilt is such a beautiful example of. What we, how we wanna approach what our own presence should be, right? Like it should be this kind of pulling from everything and, and who we are. I could not agree with you more about that. We're always on stage in some capacity.
I think one of the things that I talk about, uh, in my coaching is personal brand and. Even when you think you don't have a personal brand, you do because it's what people are saying about you when you're not in the room. And I [00:07:00] think that so closely ties to your work with executive presence. How would you, how do you define it?
Like when you're first working with a client and they're like, Hey, I want to get a promotion, or I want to get a, a interview for this role. Like, how do you even, I, I feel like executive presence particularly is this amorphous. Term leadership too. Right? So how do you define that and make it tangible for people?
Joanna Lovering: So the way that I do that is the three pillars. Hold on. Can I just, I'm gonna start that over.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you go for it. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: The way I define executive presence is through three pillars, and this is science backed by the way. I didn't make this up. just made the words my own.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: It's all about how you speak, words that you say, and the way that you sound when you [00:08:00] say them,
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: the way you act. Be it when you're under pressure or when you're excited or when you're angry, how do people take you in? And then how you look. How you look has to do with body language, gestures, facial expressions, and yes, what you are wearing. And frankly, what is in some ways annoying. I hate it, but. People will take in the data points with their eyes before anything else. You don't even have to speak, you don't have to say a word, and people are already making a judgment about you based on what they see.
Again, body language, facial expressions, gestures, and what you're wearing.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: why not ratchet that up? And I do wanna. I wanna be really careful [00:09:00] to say, when I say optimize those data points, what I don't mean is performing as someone you're not. Or conforming to some sort of societal standard of femininity or masculinity or anything in between, right? I mean, the feminist in me has zero interest in conforming to traditional ideals of what a woman is at work for me. Right. So what it's really about is being grounded and confident in exactly who you are, knowing that you have a goal. And your goal is to, I'm making this up. Your goal that day is to convince your CEO that you need more budget for this project. So knowing CEO, how [00:10:00] can you speak, look, and act that you can reach your goal more efficiently?
Kelly Duggan: I love that approach, that it's,
Joanna Lovering: what it's about.
Kelly Duggan: yeah, it's about.
Joanna Lovering: presence just isn't in a vacuum. That's what I wanna make sure people know.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I love that perspective of it being outcome driven instead of being, because it, it can feel really personal, right. And be like, I don't wanna be someone I'm not, I don't wanna be acting just as you said, I don't wanna be performing, but also I still have to get this thing done. And balancing those two must be that, that must be kind of the secret sauce, is figuring out how to walk that line.
Joanna Lovering: 100%. And listen, this stems from, and I have a story for you. Um, this stemmed from when I was working at a company that you have heard of, that your listeners have absolutely heard of. Um, and I felt like [00:11:00] my. Personhood was being critiqued when my executive presence was being well criticized in some way.
And I'm not saying that this person who told me that my laugh was too loud, that I walked too loud and that my hair was too crazy, I.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: So
Kelly Duggan: doesn't feel great.
Joanna Lovering: that doesn't feel great.
I have to say that that feeling of, um, I felt attacked from a personal standpoint and I also felt stuck, and that was the piece that I really needed to get out of the attacked thing I could. I, I actually do think she was attacking me, but that, that's neither here nor there. Yes, she got fired three months later, but, but [00:12:00] felt totally stuck In my, in the way that I was showing up. Not to say that I wanted to completely change who I was showing up. It's not like I wanted to straighten my hair every day or not be as loud, I felt stuck because I felt like I only had one way of showing up and all of a sudden that wasn't working for the important people in the room. And so I needed a way to be a little bit more fluid, but still feel like me. And that's what executive presence is. I am an extroverted person, but I have the ability to be quiet and introspective and a good listener. sometimes that part of me needed to come out. So executive presence is all about being intentional about how you're showing up so that you can make the impact that you wanna make.
Kelly Duggan: [00:13:00] Oh my gosh. I love that because I, I'm willing to bet there's someone listening to this podcast right now who feels that feeling of being stuck. I think that resonates. I know it's resonated with clients that I've worked with in the past around. When you get that feedback about your executive presence, it's impossible for it not to feel personal.
Um, and I'd love to get in with you, like how, I'd love to have a conversation at some point in here about how managers can approach that conversation so that it feels like it's coming from a place of, of, of benefit. But, uh, I don't wanna derail us too much, but I. I, I think there are people who feel stuck or maybe they're very introverted, and how do I show up in an extroverted environment when that's not me without, without feeling fake?
So, so how do you approach this with your clients? I, I, I love the model that you shared with us right around, it's about what you say, it's about how you act and it's about what people see. But how do you take that and, and get people to actually change their [00:14:00] executive presence? What are, what's some of the coaching that you do with them?
Joanna Lovering: So, uh, again, I use my words really, really, um, particularly here because what I'm not interested in is for people to change or perform. That sounds, I mean, unless you're someone on, on the other end of this, one of your listeners is a professional actor,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you can keep performing.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, you can keep performing.
but I don't think it's worth it to perform as someone you're not. What I do think is worth it though, what I call try it on. Okay. This is the. It's also not fake it till you make it, because I'm not interested in anyone having to fake anything, but try it on and see if it fits. So the, the approach that I have is, listen, I. You know what your goal is? [00:15:00] This person in front of you probably communicates, I'm making this up, but this person in front of you might communicate differently than you you are a highly detailed in the weeds quality focused person. And your, uh, your VP not someone who deals with details. They are, they speak in bullet points. They write their emails in bullet points. would say try it on. I bet there is a part of you doesn't need to write in prose every time with every single detail. So try it on and see if you can match that other person's.
This is just the communication style, so
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: part. But what I'm trying to say is if we can think about our audience, here's my theater background, but if we can think [00:16:00] about our audience as well as the goal. is the most efficient way to get at that goal? Through that audience, know that it is. In order to make them more comfortable, trust you more, that in this case we can match their communication style. It's gonna feel weird for you trying it on, you know, we don't always put on clothes that like, feel right to us, right?
Kelly Duggan: Oh yeah. No.
Joanna Lovering: if it feels wrong, we throw it
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: But if it, if it's something that we have to get used to. Maybe try it again and again and see if it helps us get to our goal.
Kelly Duggan: I love that.
Joanna Lovering: or the lens that I take.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. And I love what you're sharing around communication style because
Joanna Lovering: That was just an example,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. But it makes, [00:17:00] it's, again, it, it goes back to the point of taking the personal. Out it, right? We have ways how we show up as communicators and we don't have to change that to meet others where they are, how they communicate.
Um, and I've not really thought about that as an essential part of the executive presence before. So I'm so glad that you pointed that out because I think that's incredibly important. It's, uh, what is the line that I have heard throughout my career, treat others how they wanna be treated. Instead of the, the golden rule of, you know, treat others how you wanna be treated.
Sometimes it's all right, how do I need to communicate with this person to be in, to be interpreted as myself in a way that they can actually interpret
Joanna Lovering: Yes, exactly. How can we make it easy for them to take you in
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: heard and that they say, yes, that's
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. And that they say yes. Yeah. And you could still be you, but in a way that they can see you, um, instead of faking it.
Joanna Lovering: PS that's [00:18:00] influencing.
Kelly Duggan: You are so right.
Joanna Lovering: is. So ex executive presence is the combination of influencing plus personal brand.
Kelly Duggan: Wow.
Joanna Lovering: And good leaders are able to take that influencing piece and be a bit more fluid than most fluid in accordance to who is in their audience, who's in front of them.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Yes, It is not. easy.
Kelly Duggan: It is not. It is not. And
Joanna Lovering: not easy.
Kelly Duggan: anytime you're dealing with people, is it ever easy, right? It's worth it. It's a joy. But people are people. It, it's not formulaic, you know? It, it's, it's going to have this, um, uh, air of improv at all times.
Joanna Lovering: Oh, 100%. And, and I will say this, so many of my clients, so many of my clients, it's almost like going to therapy, right? It's like, why am I doing all the work? This is hard for me. They need to [00:19:00] do the work. I say, well, uh, pass them my info.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you're just such a, I take referrals right now.
Joanna Lovering: I
Kelly Duggan: No, but that's so true where we started this conversation even around with the looks, right? Like, okay, we might hate the fact that somebody is judging us by the way that we look.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: But we can't fight that battle in the moment, right? Yeah. We can hate it and also have to operate in a world as if, right?
Like both things can be true at the same time. Um, because we can spend so much time hoping that someone else changes and we're still losing by waiting for them to change.
Joanna Lovering: W Right. And the fact is, is that especially, unless we give them direct feedback, which most people don't feel comfortable doing, gonna change because people can't read between the lines.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Right?
Kelly Duggan: It's very true.
Joanna Lovering: so it's so [00:20:00] much easier for you to be fluid and be intentional, then wait for them to change.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, it's so true.
Joanna Lovering: if we could take a little bit more of an active stance in our career or in our lives influencing instead of waiting for things to happen, Oh my God, where would we be?
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. But those, those are the moments. I think when we, we talk about these career changing moments that you experience. I think when you're able to master the stuff that you teach on and what we're talking about today. That can be one of those moments that really unlocks opportunity for you in your career.
Uh, and we talk about leadership and we use the word like executive presence. You don't have to be an executive for this to be valuable.
Joanna Lovering: that's just the vocabulary word.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Right. Like this, no matter where you are in your career, the foundations that Joanna's talking to us about, like that stuff, it matters [00:21:00] right out the gate, all the way up to the CEO and uh, it's just horse, same horse, different color, right?
Joanna Lovering: One, 100% executive presence is for everyone. And it can be at work, it can be in your social circles, in your communities, uh, because like I said, it is personal brand plus influencing. We have to do that every day.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: it's exhausting, but we have to do that every day.
Kelly Duggan: And I, one of the things that I have not thought of before this conversation is. When you're in job search mode, like maybe you're between positions, you're putting yourself out there. I talk a lot about the importance of personal brand, but that influencing piece, like you can have a lot of power as an interviewee, as someone who is on the job search side.
By tapping into some of these skills and leveraging [00:22:00] not only your personal brand, but also the influencing to make it a full executive presence approach, I think could be really beneficial.
Joanna Lovering: 100%. And I think a lot of us already know, we already know this. We just don't put it in the, through the lens of presence. So for, for example, uh. This is like job searching 1 0 1, but we all know that you might have different versions of your resume according to what type of job you're applying for.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: person, same experience, but you're going to highlight different pieces of your experience in order to entice the recruiter.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Take that concept and put it into you,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Same person, but according to the goal, the job [00:23:00] you
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: the recruiter, the the person that's in front of you, you're going to mold and you're going to be fluid with how you talk about your experience.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: So it's kind of like, I'm glad you mentioned, I'm glad you mentioned that because. Frankly, I don't know if I've ever thought about it either, but it's kind of the same idea
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: multiple resumes at the same time. The same person, but just applying for different jobs.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, it's how are you targeting? Uh, and yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the, uh, embodied vision. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: And so we talked, we've talked a little bit about the communication piece and the speaking and, and understanding other people's communication styles. One of my favorite things about getting to follow you on, uh, LinkedIn and on Instagram is how you're able to talk about fashion and some of like how we can show up physically.
So, like, you know, one of the famous rules we're, we're [00:24:00] recording this the Tuesday after Labor Day. Uh, here I am wearing, wearing a white shirt. I, uh, I always just applied that don't wear right after Labor Day to the, to the white pants, but
Joanna Lovering: Oh.
Kelly Duggan: I, I'm sure.
Joanna Lovering: then I'll say, wear whatever the fuck you want. I
Kelly Duggan: Right.
Joanna Lovering: come on.
Kelly Duggan: I was just gonna say, having talked to you, I think you're about to tell me screw those rules, which I love.
But what are some of the like tips and tricks for people who are trying to show up, whether it be on a virtual meeting or show up in the boardroom, um, in a way that they are going to be able to be seen as credible? Like what, what is some of the advice that you give?
Joanna Lovering: Sure. So I actually have this non-math, math equation. Um, so many of my clients are women in stem, and so when I give them some guardrails in the form of an equation, they just eat it up. So here it is in order for us to build, put together [00:25:00] outfits. And for those of you who aren't watching this, I'm doing air quotes, put together, everyone says, I just wanna look put together. I just wanna look put together. So I'm like, okay, how do I define, put together? Well, here it is. Here's the definition. the line, the V and the rule of three. I'll
Kelly Duggan: this is,
Joanna Lovering: time. Yeah,
Kelly Duggan: I need to be taking notes.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. The line, the V and the rule of three, and now I promise that anytime you go into your closet, you're gonna have little Joanna on your shoulder, the line, the V and the rule of three. Okay. So what is that, by the way, these are some guardrails that are for those who identify as women, um. can talk about male fashion, but it's a, it's a little bit different.
Kelly Duggan: Okay.
Joanna Lovering: second, second caveat
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: is that [00:26:00] I'm taking into account the other people in the room, the, the audience. Okay? And so you may hear some, some. of traditional gender roles
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: ways that people define traditional, um, women's, women's bodies. And the feminist in me, this is a caveat. The feminist in me says, all that shit. And then the, the coach in me says, yeah, but you're not doing this in a vacuum. So we do have to remember
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: are other people.
And what's your goal?
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: is to influence them positively, know, we are working on changing the game, but the game isn't totally different yet.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: That's my, that's my second caveat. The line, the V and the rule of three. What is it? Okay. The line is. [00:27:00] one, in order to look put together, we need a line that goes across our smallest part of our waist.
So at the bottom of our ribs, if we do like a, I'm a little teapot right now,
Kelly Duggan: Yes.
Joanna Lovering: I'm a little teapot. Okay? You can feel where your torso kind of creases at the bottom of your ribs.
Kelly Duggan: Yes.
Joanna Lovering: the smallest part of our waist, and if we can emphasize that line either, I don't know, a belt or the end of a crop jacket or a tucked in shirt and your pan or like a half tucked, tucked in shirt your pants end right there. That is going to, that's going to influence other people positively because they're going to see the proportions of your body. And it's, we're animals, we're [00:28:00] monkeys, right? And so we like symmetry and we like correct proportions. that's one of them. The line. Okay, that's number one.
Kelly Duggan: You're, you're giving me so much justification for my millennial tuck that I cannot give up with my.
Joanna Lovering: I love the millennial Tuck. I mean, am also an elder millennial, so
Kelly Duggan: I, I am right in that millennial and I've, I've like, oh, the millennial tuck. I'm like, well call it, as you see it, I, I'm, I'm tucking, can't take it away from me.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, exactly. Okay. The line. That was the line. Then the V. The V is. Um, on either side of your neck, you need something, anything that points down at any angle down towards your feet either side of your neck down, so that can be. A v-neck. It could be a necklace, it can be the [00:29:00] lapels of a jacket. Right now, what do I have? Everything here is actually, um, rounded, but I do have my little cords and it counts, baby. It counts.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. That's great.
Joanna Lovering: it, it counts. I know it's ridiculous.
Kelly Duggan: accidental V this morning.
Joanna Lovering: then you have it.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: have it. Because you have the collar of your shirt. Exactly.
Kelly Duggan: love that.
Joanna Lovering: So that's the line and the V. And then the rule of three is a little bit more like where the science becomes an art, so many of my clients wear only two items whenever they leave a top and a bottom.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: talking about shoes here, just the top and the bottom. The rule of three is that we need to wear three significant items on our body. Not including shoes.
Kelly Duggan: Oh.
Joanna Lovering: So it needs to be a top, a bottom and something [00:30:00] else. There's gotta be something else to tie the whole thing together. That's something else can be an accessory, it could be a scarf, it could be a bangle bracelet, it could be a belt, um, it could be a jacket.
It could be my incredibly understated frames. Ha
Kelly Duggan: Which I love.
Joanna Lovering: Thank you.
Kelly Duggan: They're gorgeous.
Joanna Lovering: And really the rule of three is more like the rule of at least three, because you could have four, maybe you could have five. But once we get to six or seven, I'm like. Slow your roll.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: girl. in order to prevent us from only wearing two items. And then people are gonna say, well, what if I wear a dress? I know, I know. This is okay. This is where, uh, the science becomes an art. Okay? You're gonna wear a dress so that maybe wear a dress with [00:31:00] glasses and a headbands. I don't know. I'm making this up, but. Three significant items on your body, makes other people look at you and say, oh, she like thought about this.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: intentional today. It's that third thing that kind of ties it together. that's how I define how you put, put together outfits. PS I do entire workshops just on that. So that was a crash course.
Kelly Duggan: Notes version. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: very Spark Notes but hopefully, hopefully your listeners will walk away with the line, the v and the rule of three, and at least remember one of them.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. 'cause it can be really overwhelming when I, I know when I was corporate every day, pre COVID times in the office, every day, like you get up, you start that closet and you're just like, I don't know. I don't know. Like,
Joanna Lovering: and then you go for the same thing and Like,
whatever's in the middle, you're
Kelly Duggan: yep. I.
Joanna Lovering: I. guess I'll wear these [00:32:00] pants and this top again.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, and then sometimes you accidentally stumble across the the line, the V and the rule of three without knowing it, and you just are like, wow, this looks really good. I feel really powerful. But what I love about what we just did here was you define the language to be able to replicate it instead of accidentally just finding this outfit and then having to wear that same outfit every single day, because that's what makes you feel good.
Joanna Lovering: Yes. And also notice that I'm not saying wear this color and not that also not saying, you know, um, I'm not talking about trends at all. I'm not talking about. Patterns or prints or ruffles or whatever that is where your personal brand and your preferences can come through. Whether, you know, you, you find that you are more of a ethereal, uh, like wood nph or if you want to, I don't [00:33:00] know, look like a badass on Fifth Avenue or, you know. line, the v and the rule of three can attach itself to any sort of, preferences, whether you be sporty or preppy or whatever.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: I, if I just pat myself on the back, that's what I really like about it, is that I'm not telling you I'm, I'm not telling you actually what to wear. I'm just giving you some guardrails to help. people see you.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: all I want.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. And you are now going to shift how I get dressed for all of these podcasts and
Joanna Lovering: you're welcome.
Kelly Duggan: I love it. I absolutely love it. So we've, we've touched on the, what you say, we've touched on the what you wear. What are some tools you can give our listeners around the act how to, how to act and behave to be able to win people over?
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. So. I [00:34:00] think, or I.
know that one of the biggest topics that I talk about with my clients is what to do when anxiety,
Kelly Duggan: I.
Joanna Lovering: maybe frustration come into play. I think things can be relatively easy breezy. When we're happy and things are fine, it's when. There's something going down, shit's hitting the fan, and need to act like trusted leaders. My, I, I realize this, this, this tip is going to seem so simple, yet can be so hard for people. Here's what often happens. When we're in a meeting and things are starting to get heated or we start to [00:35:00] get stressed out, we tend to do one of two things. We either talk a mile a minute and we can't deal with silence.
Okay. That's
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, that's me.
Joanna Lovering: well. I mean, we're in, we're extroverts,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: And so we'll just ramble, speak in circles,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: run on sentences. Or for those of us who are on the opposite side of the spectrum, who are maybe not extroverted, they might not jump in at all. They might sit there and be silent. Either way, you are giving up your presence because if you're not jumping in at all, you're not showing your greatness and what great ideas you have.
And then if you are overtaking this conversation, if you're just going on and on, people are gonna see you as really nervous
Kelly Duggan: [00:36:00] Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: going to trust you.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: So what do you do? What do you do now for the folks like us, you and I Kelly? The tip that I give most to people, this is gonna sound crazy. Okay. The tip is a sip. Take a sip. Yeah, take a sip.
Kelly Duggan: I love this, and now you're making me thirsty.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
So take a sip. Is give yourself and your brain the nanosecond to pause and think, and maybe someone else will jump in. But if you do some sort of gesture like, okay, right, then probably no one will jump in. But what it does it is that it allows your brain to catch up with your mouth. And figure out what to say next.
The reason [00:37:00] that we are just going on and on with run-on sentences is because we have no idea what to say next, and anxiety is taking over.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: So give yourself the nanosecond. You can do a number of things. I like. Take a sip because it actually makes you stop talking.
Kelly Duggan: Yes. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. Other people will, you know, clench their fists and then open them, or just things to remind them of like getting rid of the energy.
But for me, take a sip is the easiest way to shut up. So that's on that end of the spectrum. The folks that are feeling really nervous and they're sitting back and giving up their presence because they're not participating, I'm going to offer. A few. Let's call them courage [00:38:00] catalysts. Okay. catalysts the way to jump in when you don't see a way in. You can also use these, I call, I also call them interruption armor, because when someone is talking over you, you might need to say something. So it's like. Something that is burned into your brain, like an easy three to four word phrase. Like, oh, just a moment. Or, I. Let me say, or you have to figure out what works for you. For some reason, it's like, it's like the sorting hat in Harry Potter. It chooses you. You don't choose it For me. Mine is if I may like some, some, like if I may like some ivory tower or something, I don't know. But it works for me and. I [00:39:00] like if I can muster the strength and wait for someone to take a breath, maybe they're taking a sip, I can jump in with, if I may. So you have to figure out what's right for you. if I, I feel like if we just have a little something, a little. Little phrase to help us jump in. We will have the courage to do so.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes it is just getting that entry, like you, you know, what you would say. It's just figuring out how do I, how do I butt in without butting in?
Joanna Lovering: I know. But the thing is, is that, well, the person speaking is gonna have to breathe At some point,
Kelly Duggan: At some point, yes. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: At some point, but also, know, so many of us, especially women, we're so afraid of people being mad at [00:40:00] us. We are so afraid of being rude and, you know, and interrupting, butting in,
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: and I just respond to that with, would a man feel the same way? Would a man feel the same way maybe. Not always.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: of me that's like, in
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: And you might not think that what you have to say is, but inable even. So there's a part of me that says, who cares? As long as you can show these other people. That you have the confidence to jump in. I think that's enough. People will remember your confidence more than exactly what you say.
Kelly Duggan: That's so true.
Joanna Lovering: the truth. [00:41:00] So I would rather you not be super confident in exactly what you're saying or that question, oh, this is such a stupid question. Who cares? Who cares? I think what's important is showing others that you have the strength and the courage to say something.
Kelly Duggan: I could not agree with you, ma, and as I'm reflecting back on kind of some of those key moments in my career before. Going into coaching, consulting myself. I think where I saw real career movement was when I trusted that what I had to say was going to be valuable to someone,
Joanna Lovering: someone,
Kelly Duggan: and that if not, nobody will care.
Nobody's gonna care. If not, but
Joanna Lovering: will care.
Kelly Duggan: most of the time somebody found value in it, and sometimes that value is not necessarily agreeing with you, but it's. [00:42:00] Sparking a different idea, and now you were a catalyst to help something happen. It's like, you know,
Joanna Lovering: You
Kelly Duggan: I, I'm not a sports person. I feel like there's probably a soccer analogy in there somewhere, from what I've seen from my husband interpret with soccer.
But I, I, I can't, I can't make it in good heart. But, you know, there's an assist, right? You can be the person that's setting up the assist, um, in the meeting.
Joanna Lovering: Something. about assists. Yeah,
Kelly Duggan: Something. Yeah, something's going on there. Um, the jokes aside, I think those are, that's one of those key moments where you go from being a individual contributor, someone who is told what to do and do the work, and to being a thought partner and someone who.
Helping to create the work that should be done. Um, and I do think that's like a really big, like almost coming of age, career moment, uh, that is so grounded in executive presence.
Joanna Lovering: it really is because it's grounded in [00:43:00] influence and confidence.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. I.
Joanna Lovering: Right? So, and, and I would just, would challenge your listeners to say, listen, I.
know that a lot of people come to me and they say I need more confidence. Yeah.
me too.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: think most of us do, I believe in order to get there, what we really need are some new tools to try, be it a courage catalyst, be it take a sip, be it the line, the v, the rule of three, right?
Be it, uh, the communication styles thing, whatever it is, can we try it on? Know that we have more tools in our toolkit, so then at least even if we're not feeling confident, maybe other people will [00:44:00] view us as having confidence even if we're not feeling it on the inside. Because I believe with more tools, the confidence will come.
Kelly Duggan: I completely agree with you.
Joanna Lovering: That, that's what I'm all about. Let me give you some tools to try so that the confidence will come.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, particularly when you're doing something new. Nobody, nobody, nobody. Nobody does something new for the first time and has complete confidence. Maybe some psychopaths out there, but very few normal people
Joanna Lovering: Oh,
Kelly Duggan: can achieve that.
Joanna Lovering: no, no. There, there are people who do you know who they are? Narcissists.
Kelly Duggan: very true.
Joanna Lovering: This is what, this is
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: say to people. I say, listen, if you are not nervous about a thing that you care about, if you're not nervous, you are narciss.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you need to be doing some self-reflection.
Joanna Lovering: Some self-reflection. For real, for real. So, I think ner like nervousness [00:45:00] or feeling a little uncomfortable is a sign of growth,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: a sign of weakness.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Let yourself grow.
Kelly Duggan: In fact, if you're finding yourself totally confident every day you're going to work, I, as a career coach, I'm gonna challenge you to say it's time to be doing something else. Like you need to either grow in your current role, you need to find another role. Like you need to have that kind of healthy, uh, relationship with trying to achieve confidence, uh, because.
That's where your value is. That's how you're growing your value, and you're growing your salary and you're, you're moving along in your career a hundred percent. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Kelly Duggan: So I promise we'd circle back to this question. So for
Joanna Lovering: Oh.
Kelly Duggan: the people managers that are listening to this, the folks who with the genuine heart are trying to help their people increase their executive presence.
'cause it is, when I worked in hr, it was the [00:46:00] number one piece of feedback that managers would say like, they just need to work on their executive presence. Like they know how to do the work, I wanna help them. Achieve, achieve, but would really freeze up when they had to communicate that message. What is a healthy, positive way?
Um, again, without like, we don't wanna be fake here, how can people really approach what can be a really difficult conversation in a way that the, uh, the person receiving that feedback could hear it?
Joanna Lovering: The way to do that is to focus on the impact and not necessarily focus on the behavior. What I mean by this is I. When I'm making this up, when someone shows to a meeting wearing, I'm making this up, cargo shorts and flip flops, and, and they don't work for a startup. Because so many
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: at [00:47:00] startups, uh, wear that kind of
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, because environment matters, right?
Joanna Lovering: big presentation with ELT and they show up wearing flip flops and cargo shorts and a hoodie and a, and a free t-shirt that they got for that manager that needs to give the feedback to that person instead of focusing on, you can't wear that. Instead, the conversation is around the impact or the potential impact that it had on all the other people. in other words, it gives that person the benefit of the doubt that they didn't think about that impact. So you could say something like, listen, um, what I am afraid of when. When we wear more casual clothes, what I'm afraid of is that ELT especially so [00:48:00] and so, isn't gonna take you seriously. I am afraid that they're not gonna hear you, and that's a problem for all of us, right? So they can't deny that they wanna make the impact that they wanna make. And so hopefully they can change their behavior because. The impact is important enough. If we just focus on the behavior or the thing that you saw or the thing that you heard, right? Then it becomes about rules and it becomes about being a good little soldier, and that doesn't feel good for anyone over the age of, I don't know, 15
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, if you can get it that long.
Joanna Lovering: right? You can't wear that.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: So. That is my advice is focus on the impact that behavior has on [00:49:00] you, the team, the project, the company, the, the executives, whatever.
It's,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: that's my advice. Focus on the impact
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, I think that's huge because
Joanna Lovering: because
Kelly Duggan: as we've talked about multiple times, it, it's, it takes work to see this as outcome driven. Work and not personal driven. And when you get into executive presence conversations, I think it's so important for managers to remember, you know, there the, the, the listener is going to be hardwired to go personal.
Right? It's going to feel personal. And when you take the approach that you just shared, I think it sets that conversation up as. Outcome driven and, and keeping us in that space. Um, 'cause I'm sure you, like if someone had had a conversation like this with you, instead of telling you, you've, you're too loud and have crazy hair, you would've felt a whole lot differently about that situation.
Joanna Lovering: I would've felt so much different if someone said, you know, [00:50:00] I, I'm, I'm worried that, um, not everyone can participate because of the amount of time you spend talking in meetings. Something like that. I would be more amenable to. To affecting that impact. Then Joanna, you talk too much,
Kelly Duggan: Right.
Joanna Lovering: which feels very rule driven,
Kelly Duggan: World driven and it feels you, right? It feels like an attack on you instead of a shift in how we are going to achieve a mutual goal.
Joanna Lovering: That's it.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: it. And that's the key for any leader that needs to give feedback, frankly, on anything.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. I.
Joanna Lovering: on something where, where the other person can become defensive they feel like it's personal. I mean, wouldn't you feel like it's personal? So. Um, Yeah.
focusing on the impact. You [00:51:00] could even add a little, like, know it wasn't your intention, but blah, blah.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Impact. Impact. So you could say, I know you didn't mean to even give them the benefit of the doubt that way, and then together we can collaborate in order to meet this mutual goal.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's amazing how far treating people like people can take you in life, right?
Joanna Lovering: listen,
Kelly Duggan: Oh, my.
Joanna Lovering: Call me. Call me if anyone needs a little help
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: like people
Kelly Duggan: Well, perfect transition. I, I have so enjoyed this conversation. I could talk your ear off about this stuff all day long.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Um, and one of these days, uh, I'm signing up and we're just gonna do a whole closet edit for me once I, once I can figure out what my postpartum self is gonna be looking like here.
Um, [00:52:00] how can people follow along with you? How can they work with you? Where can they find you?
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, head to my website. It's www dot copper. Copper is the color of my hair, copper and rise.com. So copper color of my hair. And rise up in your life. That's what it is. Copper me copper. Rise up. So copper and rise.com. I am on LinkedIn, of course, under Joanna Lovering, and I'm also on the gram at Copper and Rise and spell out and a and d.
Kelly Duggan: Great. Well, I hope everyone does go and find you. I love all of your, you're so active on LinkedIn and your content is phenomenal. So, um,
Joanna Lovering: you.
Kelly Duggan: I hope everybody follows along.
Joanna Lovering: labor of love because boy, media's not my favorite. I'll tell you.
Kelly Duggan: Well, you would never know. You would never know by that presence you're putting up, let me tell you. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: you, [00:53:00] darling. Thank
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Joanna. I look forward to chatting with you soon, and thanks everyone for joining us today. I.
Joanna Lovering: everybody.
Kelly Duggan: For this point in September. Okay. Um, I'm gonna just take a deep breath, read this over in my head one time.
Welcome to the Love What You Do podcast. I'm Kelly Dugan, former HR executive turned career coach, and I'm here each week sharing strategies and stories to help you take action and create a career you love. Welcome to the podcast everyone. I am so excited to have our guest here with us today, Joanna Levering.
Welcome to the podcast. Joanna is a leadership and presence consultant. She's a coach. She is an amazing facilitator, and she's gonna be here today talking to us all about how we can increase our executive presence, why it's important, and share a [00:54:00] little bit about the amazing career path that made you an expert in all of these areas.
So welcome, Joanna.
Joanna Lovering: Thanks so much for having me.
Kelly Duggan: Of course. Thank you for being here. So I start almost all of our podcasts off with the same question to ground us. Tell us a little bit about the career path that got you to where you are today, which is doing all of this amazing coaching and consulting on executive presence.
Joanna Lovering: Well, you know, as I think back through my career, there are a few common threads. So, you know, in, in, instead of just doing a chronology of my resume, what I wanna make sure that people know is what's really important when you tell your story in, in my opinion, is to talk about. The values and the common threads that we can see throughout.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: I think about it, I have a common thread of wanting to help [00:55:00] people reach their potential and feel more grounded in that potential. I also have a common thread of aesthetics and loving being creative with what you can see with your eyes, and I love being around people. am so extroverted that I get so much energy just from being around people. my career started in the world of beauty marketing in cubicle land. I was working at L'Oreal. I. I decided to go back to graduate school for organizational psychology where I focused on leadership development and coaching. And since then I've worked in both corporate and smaller startup arenas as a facilitator and a coach.
For the world of leadership development and talent management, so helping people through [00:56:00] courses like management courses, as well as one-on-one coaching, helping them be better leaders.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: managers too, and there is a difference between leading and managing, but really just stop sucking at being leaders. Get your communication skills under control and be more consistent and in front of your team to garner trust that. Is what I do. Like I said, I've done it in larger corporate arenas as well. Like, like JetBlue, Tiffany and Company NBC Universal, and then some smaller startups like Daily Burn. and now here I am, eight years in, I've had my own business.
Wow.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh, that's incredible. I, Joanna, you and I met it, it through coaching, actually we did some resume work together as you were starting to really break into a lot of [00:57:00] facilitation and. I had the opportunity of getting to hear your career story in such detail. Um, and you have one of the most fascinating backgrounds of anybody that I've had the joy of getting to work with.
I I, no, I, I,
Joanna Lovering: gosh.
Kelly Duggan: I truly mean that yet. Like, 'cause you have done it all.
Joanna Lovering: good thing or a bad thing.
Kelly Duggan: It's a great thing. Oh, well, for a career nerd, it is an amazing thing.
Joanna Lovering: sure.
Kelly Duggan: just, the diversification that you've had, not only with the, the corporate clients you've gotten to work with in full time, time capacities, but also like getting to bring in this like entertainment industry flair and the fashion passion that you have.
Like, uh, it is what I think really makes you such a unique personality to help people with their executive presence because you're coming at it from so many different angles.
Joanna Lovering: Thank you. Well, you know, my background in leadership development, you know that it's [00:58:00] organizational psychology is my education. PS my undergrad was in performance as well,
Kelly Duggan: Ah,
Joanna Lovering: stuff. Okay.
Kelly Duggan: very nice.
Joanna Lovering: very, very used to being on stage. And the fact of the matter is, is that no matter where we are, whether we're physically in the room or. On a Zoom room, when we are at work, we are on stage. Whether we like it or not. Some believe me, I know some days you, you don't want to be on stage, but people are looking and so my thought is why not take some of those data points that people are taking in about you and frankly, making a judgment about you and why not ratchet them up a little bit or optimize them so that you can.
Influence people more positively have more trusting work relationships. Why not? So there are ways to do that, it [00:59:00] how you speak, how you act, as well as how you look. And I know that we'll get into it. So, Yeah, I, I love the fact that my career has been a patchwork quilt. I've always been that type of person. Um, and it kind of melds all of the things that I love. I love working with people. I love helping them reach their potential and feel confident in it, and I love that there's a creative aspect that I need in my life as well.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that patchwork quilt is such a beautiful example of. What we, how we wanna approach what our own presence should be, right? Like it should be this kind of pulling from everything and, and who we are. I could not agree with you more about that. We're always on stage in some capacity.
I think one of the things that I talk about, [01:00:00] uh, in my coaching is personal brand and. Even when you think you don't have a personal brand, you do because it's what people are saying about you when you're not in the room. And I think that so closely ties to your work with executive presence. How would you, how do you define it?
Like when you're first working with a client and they're like, Hey, I want to get a promotion, or I want to get a, a interview for this role. Like, how do you even, I, I feel like executive presence particularly is this amorphous. Term leadership too. Right? So how do you define that and make it tangible for people?
Joanna Lovering: So the way that I do that is the three pillars. Hold on. Can I just, I'm gonna start that over.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you go for it. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: The way I define executive presence is through three pillars, and this is science backed by the way. I didn't make this up. [01:01:00] just made the words my own.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: It's all about how you speak, words that you say, and the way that you sound when you say them,
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: the way you act. Be it when you're under pressure or when you're excited or when you're angry, how do people take you in? And then how you look. How you look has to do with body language, gestures, facial expressions, and yes, what you are wearing. And frankly, what is in some ways annoying. I hate it, but. People will take in the data points with their eyes before anything else. You don't even have to speak, you don't have to say a word, and people are already making a judgment about you based on what they see.
Again, body language, facial [01:02:00] expressions, gestures, and what you're wearing.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: why not ratchet that up? And I do wanna. I wanna be really careful to say, when I say optimize those data points, what I don't mean is performing as someone you're not. Or conforming to some sort of societal standard of femininity or masculinity or anything in between, right? I mean, the feminist in me has zero interest in conforming to traditional ideals of what a woman is at work for me. Right. So what it's really about is being grounded and confident in exactly who you are, knowing that you have a goal. And your goal is to, I'm making this up. Your goal that [01:03:00] day is to convince your CEO that you need more budget for this project. So knowing CEO, how can you speak, look, and act that you can reach your goal more efficiently?
Kelly Duggan: I love that approach, that it's,
Joanna Lovering: what it's about.
Kelly Duggan: yeah, it's about.
Joanna Lovering: presence just isn't in a vacuum. That's what I wanna make sure people know.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I love that perspective of it being outcome driven instead of being, because it, it can feel really personal, right. And be like, I don't wanna be someone I'm not, I don't wanna be acting just as you said, I don't wanna be performing, but also I still have to get this thing done. And balancing those two must be that, that must be kind of the secret sauce, is figuring out how to walk that line.
Joanna Lovering: 100%. And listen, this stems from, and I have a story for you. Um, this stemmed from when I was working at a company that you [01:04:00] have heard of, that your listeners have absolutely heard of. Um, and I felt like my. Personhood was being critiqued when my executive presence was being well criticized in some way.
And I'm not saying that this person who told me that my laugh was too loud, that I walked too loud and that my hair was too crazy, I.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: So
Kelly Duggan: doesn't feel great.
Joanna Lovering: that doesn't feel great, I have to say that that feeling of, um, I felt attacked from a personal standpoint and I also felt stuck, and that was the piece that I really needed to get out of the attacked thing I could. [01:05:00] I, I actually do think she was attacking me, but that, that's neither here nor there. Yes, she got fired three months later, but, but felt totally stuck in. my, in the way that I was showing up. Not to say that I wanted to completely change who I was showing up. It's not like I wanted to straighten my hair every day or not be as loud, I felt stuck because I felt like I only had one way of showing up and all of a sudden that wasn't working for the important people in the room. And so I needed a way to be a little bit more fluid, but still feel like me. And that's what executive presence is. I am an extroverted person, but I have the ability to be quiet and introspective and a good listener. sometimes that part of me needed to come out. [01:06:00] So executive presence is all about being intentional about how you're showing up so that you can make the impact that you wanna make.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I love that because I, I'm willing to bet there's someone listening to this podcast right now who feels that feeling of being stuck. I think that resonates. I know it's resonated with clients that I've worked with in the past around. When you get that feedback about your executive presence, it's impossible for it not to feel personal.
Um, and I'd love to get in with you, like how, I'd love to have a conversation at some point in here about how managers can approach that conversation so that it feels like it's coming from a place of, of, of benefit. But, uh, I don't wanna derail us too much, but I. I, I think there are people who feel stuck or maybe they're very introverted, and how do I show up in an extroverted environment when that's not me without, without feeling fake?
So, so how do you approach this with your clients? I, I, I love the model that you shared with [01:07:00] us right around, it's about what you say, it's about how you act and it's about what people see. But how do you take that and, and get people to actually change their executive presence? What are, what's some of the coaching that you do with them?
Joanna Lovering: So, uh, again, I use my words really, really, um, particularly here because what I'm not interested in is for people to change or perform. That sounds, I mean, unless you're someone on, on the other end of this, one of your listeners is a professional actor,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you can keep performing.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, you can keep performing, but I don't think it's worth it to perform as someone you're not. What I do think is worth it though, what I call try it on. Okay. This is the. It's also not fake it till you make it, because I'm not interested in anyone having to fake anything, but try [01:08:00] it on and see if it fits. So the, the approach that I have is, listen, I. You know what your goal is? This person in front of you probably communicates, I'm making this up, but this person in front of you might communicate differently than you you are a highly detailed in the weeds quality focused person. And your, uh, your VP not someone who deals with details. They are, they speak in bullet points. They write their emails in bullet points. would say try it on. I bet there is a part of you doesn't need to write in prose every time with every single detail. So try it on and see if you can match that other person's.
This is just the communication style, [01:09:00] so
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: part. But what I'm trying to say is if we can think about our audience, here's my theater background, but if we can think about our audience as well as the goal. is the most efficient way to get at that goal? Through that audience, know that it is. In order to make them more comfortable, trust you more, that in this case we can match their communication style. It's gonna feel weird for you trying it on, you know, we don't always put on clothes that like, feel right to us, right?
Kelly Duggan: Oh yeah. No.
Joanna Lovering: if it feels wrong, we throw it
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: But if it, if it's something that we have to get used to. Maybe try it again and again and see if it helps us get to our goal.
Kelly Duggan: I love that.
Joanna Lovering: or the lens that I take.[01:10:00]
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. And I love what you're sharing around communication style because
Joanna Lovering: That was just an example,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. But it makes, it's, again, it, it goes back to the point of taking the personal. Out it, right? We have ways how we show up as communicators and we don't have to change that to meet others where they are, how they communicate.
Um, and I've not really thought about that as an essential part of the executive presence before. So I'm so glad that you pointed that out because I think that's incredibly important. It's, uh, what is the line that I have heard throughout my career, treat others how they wanna be treated. Instead of the, the golden rule of, you know, treat others how you wanna be treated.
Sometimes it's all right, how do I need to communicate with this person to be in, to be interpreted as myself in a way that they can actually interpret
Joanna Lovering: Yes, exactly. How can we make it easy for them to take you in
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: heard and that [01:11:00] they say, yes, that's
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. And that they say yes. Yeah. And you could still be you, but in a way that they can see you, um, instead of faking it.
Joanna Lovering: PS that's influencing.
Kelly Duggan: You are so right.
Joanna Lovering: is. So ex executive presence is the combination of influencing plus personal brand.
Kelly Duggan: Wow.
Joanna Lovering: And good leaders are able to take that influencing piece and be a bit more fluid than most fluid in accordance to who is in their audience, who's in front of them.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Yes, it is not easy.
Kelly Duggan: It is not. It is not. And
Joanna Lovering: not easy.
Kelly Duggan: anytime you're dealing with people, is it ever easy, right? It's worth it. It's a joy. But people are people. It, it's not formulaic, you know? It, it's, it's going to have this, um, uh, air of improv at all times.
Joanna Lovering: Oh, 100%. And, and I [01:12:00] will say this, so many of my clients, so many of my clients, it's almost like going to therapy, right? It's like, why am I doing all the work? This is hard for me. They need to do the work. I say, well, uh, pass them my info.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you're just such a, I take referrals right now.
Joanna Lovering: I
Kelly Duggan: No, but that's so true where we started this conversation even around with the looks, right? Like, okay, we might hate the fact that somebody is judging us by the way that we look.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: But we can't fight that battle in the moment, right? Yeah. We can hate it and also have to operate in a world as if, right?
Like both things can be true at the same time. Um, because we can spend so much time hoping that someone else changes and we're still losing by waiting for them to change.
Joanna Lovering: W Right. And the fact is, is that especially, unless we give them direct feedback, which most [01:13:00] people don't feel comfortable doing, gonna change because people can't read between the lines.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Right?
Kelly Duggan: It's very true.
Joanna Lovering: So, it's so much easier for you to be fluid and be intentional, then wait for them to change.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, it's so true.
Joanna Lovering: if we could take a little bit more of an active stance in our career or in our lives influencing instead of waiting for things to happen, oh my God, where would we be?
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. But those, those are the moments. I think when we, we talk about these career changing moments that you experience. I think when you're able to master the stuff that you teach on and what we're talking about today. That can be one of those moments that really unlocks opportunity for you in your career.
Uh, and we talk about leadership and we use the word like executive presence. You don't have to be an executive for this to be valuable.
Joanna Lovering: That's just the [01:14:00] vocabulary word.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Right. Like this, no matter where you are in your career, the foundations that Joanna's talking to us about, like that stuff, it matters right out the gate, all the way up to the CEO and uh, it's just horse, same horse, different color, right?
Joanna Lovering: One, 100% executive presence is for everyone. And it can be at work, it can be in your social circles, in your communities, uh, because like I said, it is personal brand plus influencing. We have to do that every day.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: it's exhausting, but we have to do that every day.
Kelly Duggan: And I, one of the things that I have not thought of before this conversation is. When you're in job search mode, like maybe you're between positions, you're putting yourself out there. I talk a lot about the importance of personal brand, but that influencing piece, like you can [01:15:00] have a lot of power as an interviewee, as someone who is on the job search side.
By tapping into some of these skills and leveraging not only your personal brand, but also the influencing to make it a full executive presence approach, I think could be really beneficial.
Joanna Lovering: 100%. And I think a lot of us already know, we already know this. We just don't put it in the, through the lens of presence. So for, for example, uh. This is like job searching 1 0 1, but we all know that you might have different versions of your resume according to what type of job you're applying for.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: person, same experience, but you're going to highlight different pieces of your experience in order to entice the recruiter.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Take that concept and put it [01:16:00] into you,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Same person, but according to the goal, the job you
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: the recruiter, the the person that's in front of you, you're going to mold and you're going to be fluid with how you talk about your experience.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: So it's kind of like, I'm glad you mentioned, I'm glad you mentioned that because. Frankly, I don't know if I've ever thought about it either, but it's kind of the same idea
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: multiple resumes at the same time. The same person, but just applying for different jobs.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, it's how are you targeting? Uh, and yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the, uh, embodied vision. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: And so we talked, we've talked a little bit about the communication piece and the speaking and, and understanding other people's communication styles. One of my favorite things about getting to follow you on, uh, LinkedIn and [01:17:00] on Instagram is how you're able to talk about fashion and some of like how we can show up physically.
So, like, you know, one of the famous rules we're, we're recording this the Tuesday after Labor Day. Uh, here I am wearing, wearing a white shirt. I, uh, I always just applied that don't wear right after Labor Day to the, to the white pants, but
Joanna Lovering: Oh.
Kelly Duggan: I, I'm sure.
Joanna Lovering: then I'll say, wear whatever the fuck you want. I
Kelly Duggan: Right.
Joanna Lovering: come on.
Kelly Duggan: I was just gonna say, having talked to you, I think you're about to tell me screw those rules, which I love.
But what are some of the like tips and tricks for people who are trying to show up, whether it be on a virtual meeting or show up in the boardroom, um, in a way that they are going to be able to be seen as credible? Like what, what is some of the advice that you give?
Joanna Lovering: Sure. So I actually have this non-math, math equation. Um, so many of my clients are women in stem, and so when I [01:18:00] give them some guardrails in the form of an equation, they just eat it up. So here it is in order for us to build, put together outfits. And for those of you who aren't watching this, I'm doing air quotes, put together, everyone says, I just wanna look put together. I just wanna look put together. So I'm like, okay, how do I define, put together? Well, here it is. Here's the definition. the line, the V and the rule of three. I'll
Kelly Duggan: this is,
Joanna Lovering: time. Yeah,
Kelly Duggan: I need to be taking notes.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. The line, the V and the rule of three, and now I promise that anytime you go into your closet, you're gonna have little Joanna on your shoulder, the line, the V and the rule of three. Okay. So what is that, by the way, these are some guardrails that are for those who identify as women, um. [01:19:00] can talk about male fashion, but it's a, it's a little bit different.
Kelly Duggan: Okay.
Joanna Lovering: second, second caveat
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: is that I'm taking into account the other people in the room, the, the audience. Okay? And so you may hear some, some. of traditional gender roles
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: ways that people define traditional, um, women's, women's bodies. And the feminist in me, this is a caveat. The feminist in me says, all that shit. And then the, the coach in me says, yeah, but you're not doing this in a vacuum. So we do have to remember
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: are other people.
And what's your goal
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: is to influence them positively, know, we are working on changing the game, but the game isn't totally different yet.
Kelly Duggan: [01:20:00] Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: That's my, that's my second caveat. The line, the V and the rule of three. What is it? Okay. The line is. one, in order to look put together, we need a line that goes across our smallest part of our waist.
So at the bottom of our ribs, if we do like a, I'm a little teapot right now,
Kelly Duggan: Yes.
Joanna Lovering: I'm a little teapot. Okay? You can feel where your torso kind of creases at the bottom of your ribs.
Kelly Duggan: Yes.
Joanna Lovering: the smallest part of our waist, and if we can emphasize that line either, I don't know, a belt or the end of a crop jacket or a tucked in shirt and your pan or like a half tucked, tucked in shirt your pants end right there. That is going to, that's going [01:21:00] to influence other people positively because they're going to see the proportions of your body. And it's, we're animals, we're monkeys, right? And so we like symmetry and we like correct proportions. that's one of them. The line. Okay, that's number one.
Kelly Duggan: You're, you're giving me so much justification for my millennial tuck that I cannot give up with my.
Joanna Lovering: I love the millennial Tuck. I mean, am also an elder millennial, so
Kelly Duggan: I, I am right in that millennial and I've, I've like, oh, the millennial tuck. I'm like, well call it, as you see it, I, I'm, I'm tucking, can't take it away from me.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. exactly. Okay. The line. That was the line. Then the V. The V is. Um, on either side of your neck, you need something, anything that points down at any angle down [01:22:00] towards your feet either side of your neck down, so that can be. A v-neck. It could be a necklace, it can be the lapels of a jacket. Right now, what do I have? Everything here is actually, um, rounded, but I do have my little cords and it counts, baby. It counts.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. That's great.
Joanna Lovering: it, it counts. I know it's ridiculous.
Kelly Duggan: accidental V this morning.
Joanna Lovering: then you have it.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: have it. Because you have the collar of your shirt. Exactly.
Kelly Duggan: love that.
Joanna Lovering: So that's the line and the V. And then the rule of three is a little bit more like where the science becomes an art, so many of my clients wear only two items whenever they leave a top and a bottom.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: talking about shoes here, just the top and the bottom. The rule of three is that we need to [01:23:00] wear three significant items on our body. Not including shoes.
Kelly Duggan: Oh.
Joanna Lovering: So it needs to be a top, a bottom and something else. There's gotta be something else to tie the whole thing together. That's something else can be an accessory, it could be a scarf, it could be a bangle bracelet, it could be a belt, um, it could be a jacket.
It could be my incredibly understated frames. ha.
Kelly Duggan: Which I love.
Joanna Lovering: Thank you.
Kelly Duggan: They're gorgeous.
Joanna Lovering: And really the rule of three is more like the rule of at least three, because you could have four, maybe you could have five. But once we get to six or seven, I'm like. Slow your roll.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: girl, in order to prevent us from only wearing two items. And then people are gonna say, well, what if I wear a dress? [01:24:00] I know, I know. This is okay. This is where, uh, the science becomes an art. Okay? You're gonna wear a dress so that maybe wear a dress with glasses and a headbands. I don't know. I'm making this up, but. Three significant items on your body, makes other people look at you and say, oh, she like thought about this.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: intentional today. It's that third thing that kind of ties it together. that's how I define how you put, put together outfits. PS I do entire workshops just on that. So that was a crash course.
Kelly Duggan: Notes version. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Very Spark notes, but hopefully, hopefully your listeners will walk away with the line, the v and the rule of three, and at least remember one of them.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. 'cause it can be really overwhelming when I, I know when I was corporate every day, pre COVID times in the office, every day, like [01:25:00] you get up, you start that closet and you're just like, I don't know. I don't know. Like,
Joanna Lovering: and then you go for the same thing and like whatever's in the middle, you're
Kelly Duggan: yep. I.
Joanna Lovering: I guess I'll wear these pants and this top again.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, and then sometimes you accidentally stumble across the the line, the V and the rule of three without knowing it, and you just are like, wow, this looks really good. I feel really powerful. But what I love about what we just did here was you define the language to be able to replicate it instead of accidentally just finding this outfit and then having to wear that same outfit every single day, because that's what makes you feel good.
Joanna Lovering: Yes. And also notice that I'm not saying wear this color and not that also not saying, you know, um, I'm not talking about trends at all. I'm not talking about. Patterns or prints or ruffles or whatever that is where your personal brand and your preferences can come through. Whether, you know, you, you [01:26:00] find that you are more of a ethereal, uh, like wood nph or if you want to, I don't know, look like a badass on Fifth Avenue or, you know. line, the v and the rule of three can attach itself to any sort of, preferences, whether you be sporty or preppy or whatever.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: I, if I just pat myself on the back, that's what I really like about it, is that I'm not telling you I'm, I'm not telling you actually what to wear. I'm just giving you some guardrails to help. people see you.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: all I want.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. And you are now going to shift how I get dressed for all of these podcasts and
Joanna Lovering: you're welcome.
Kelly Duggan: I love it. I absolutely love it. So we've, we've touched on the, what you say, we've touched on the what you wear. What are some [01:27:00] tools you can give our listeners around the act how to, how to act and behave to be able to win people over?
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. So. I think, or I know that one of the biggest topics that I talk about with my clients is what to do when anxiety,
Kelly Duggan: I.
Joanna Lovering: maybe frustration come into play. I think things can be relatively easy breezy. When we're happy and things are fine, it's when. There's something going down, shit's hitting the fan, and need to act like trusted leaders. My, I, I realize this, this, this tip is going to seem so simple, yet can [01:28:00] be so hard for people. Here's what often happens. When we're in a meeting and things are starting to get heated or we start to get stressed out, we tend to do one of two things. We either talk a mile a minute and we can't deal with silence.
Okay. That's
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, that's me.
Joanna Lovering: well. I mean, we're in, we're extroverts,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: And so we'll just ramble, speak in circles,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: run on sentences. Or for those of us who are on the opposite side of the spectrum, who are maybe not extroverted, they might not jump in at all. They might sit there and be silent. Either way, you are giving up your presence because if you're not jumping in at all, you're not showing your greatness and what great ideas [01:29:00] you have.
And then if you are overtaking this conversation, if you're just going on and on, people are gonna see you as really nervous
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: going to trust you.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: So what do you do? What do you do now for the folks like us, you and I, Kelly? The tip that I give most to people, this is gonna sound crazy. Okay. The tip is a sip. Take a sip. Yeah, take a sip.
Kelly Duggan: I love this, and now you're making me thirsty.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. So take a sip. Is give yourself and your brain the nanosecond to pause and think, and maybe someone else will jump in. But if you do some sort of gesture like, okay, right, then probably no one will jump in. [01:30:00] But what it does it is that it allows your brain to catch up with your mouth. And figure out what to say next.
The reason that we are just going on and on with run-on sentences is because we have no idea what to say next, and anxiety is taking over.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: So give yourself the nanosecond. You can do a number of things. I like. Take a sip because it actually makes you stop talking.
Kelly Duggan: Yes. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. Other people will, you know, clench their fists and then open them, or just things to remind them of like getting rid of the energy.
But for me, take a sip is the easiest way to shut up. So that's on that end of the spectrum. The folks that are feeling really nervous and they're sitting back and [01:31:00] giving up their presence because they're not participating, I'm going to offer. A few. Let's call them courage catalysts. Okay. catalysts the way to jump in when you don't see a way in. You can also use these, I call, I also call them interruption armor, because when someone is talking over you, you might need to say something. So it's, like. Something that is burned into your brain, like an easy three to four word phrase. Like, oh, just a moment. Or, I. Let me say, or you have to figure out what works for you. For some reason, it's like, it's like the sorting hat in Harry Potter. It chooses you. You don't choose it For me. Mine [01:32:00] is if I may like some, some, like if I may like some ivory tower or something, I don't know. But it works for me and. I like if I can muster the strength and wait for someone to take a breath, maybe they're taking a sip, I can jump in with, if I may. So you have to figure out what's right for you. if I, I feel like if we just have a little something, a little. Little phrase to help us jump in. We will have the courage to do so.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes it is just getting that entry, like you, you know, what you would say. It's just figuring out how do I, how do I butt in without butting in?
Joanna Lovering: I know. But the thing is, is that, well, the person speaking is gonna have to breathe at some point,[01:33:00]
Kelly Duggan: At some point, yes. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: At some point, but also, know, so many of us, especially women, we're so afraid of people being mad at us. We are so afraid of being rude and, you know, and interrupting, butting in,
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: and I just respond to that with, would a man feel the same way? Would a man feel the same way maybe. Not always.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: of me that's like, in
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: And you might not think that what you have to say is, but inable even. So there's a part of me that says, who cares? As long as you can show these other people. That you have the confidence to jump in. I think [01:34:00] that's enough. People will remember your confidence more than exactly what you say.
Kelly Duggan: That's so true.
Joanna Lovering: the, truth. So I would rather you not be super confident in exactly what you're saying or that question, oh, this is such a stupid question. Who cares? Who cares? I think what's important is showing others that you have the strength and the courage to say something.
Kelly Duggan: I could not agree with you, ma, and as I'm reflecting back on kind of some of those key moments in my career before. Going into coaching, consulting myself. I think where I saw real career movement was when I trusted that what I had to say was going to be valuable to someone,
Joanna Lovering: someone,
Kelly Duggan: and that if not, nobody will care.
Nobody's gonna care. If not, [01:35:00] but
Joanna Lovering: will care.
Kelly Duggan: most of the time somebody found value in it, and sometimes that value is not necessarily agreeing with you, but it's. Sparking a different idea, and now you were a catalyst to help something happen. It's like, you know,
Joanna Lovering: You
Kelly Duggan: I, I'm not a sports person. I feel like there's probably a soccer analogy in there somewhere, from what I've seen from my husband interpret with soccer.
But I, I, I can't, I can't make it in good heart. But, you know, there's an assist, right? You can be the person that's setting up the assist, um, in the meeting.
Joanna Lovering: something about assists. Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Something. Yeah, something's going on there. Um, the jokes aside, I think those are, that's one of those key moments where you go from being a individual contributor, someone who is told what to do and do the work, and to being a thought partner and someone who.
Helping to create the work that should be done. Um, and I do think that's like a really big, [01:36:00] like almost coming of age, career moment, uh, that is so grounded in executive presence.
Joanna Lovering: it really is because it's grounded in influence and confidence.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. I.
Joanna Lovering: Right? So, and, and I would just, would challenge your listeners to say, listen, I know that a lot of people come to me and they say I need more confidence. Yeah, me too.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: think most of us do, I believe in order to get there, what we really need are some new tools to try, be it a courage catalyst, be it take a sip, be it the line, the v, the rule of three, right?
Be it, uh, the communication styles thing, whatever it is, can we try it on? Know that we have more tools in our [01:37:00] toolkit, so then at least even if we're not feeling confident, maybe other people will view us as having confidence even if we're not feeling it on the inside. Because I believe with more tools, the confidence will come.
Kelly Duggan: I completely agree with you.
Joanna Lovering: That, that's what I'm all about. Let me give you some tools to try so that the confidence will come.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, particularly when you're doing something new. Nobody, nobody, nobody. Nobody does something new for the first time and has complete confidence. Maybe some psychopaths out there, but very few normal people
Joanna Lovering: Oh,
Kelly Duggan: can achieve that.
Joanna Lovering: no, no, There, there are people who do you know who they are? Narcissists.
Kelly Duggan: very true.
Joanna Lovering: This is what, this is
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: say to people. I say, listen, if you are not nervous about a thing that you care about, if you're not nervous, you are [01:38:00] narciss.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you need to be doing some self-reflection.
Joanna Lovering: Some self-reflection. For real, for real. So, I think ner like nervousness or feeling a little uncomfortable is a sign of growth,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: a sign of weakness.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Let yourself grow.
Kelly Duggan: In fact, if you're finding yourself totally confident every day you're going to work, I, as a career coach, I'm gonna challenge you to say it's time to be doing something else. Like you need to either grow in your current role, you need to find another role. Like you need to have that kind of healthy, uh, relationship with trying to achieve confidence, uh, because.
That's where your value is. That's how you're growing your value, and you're growing your salary and you're, you're moving along in your career a hundred percent. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Kelly Duggan: So I promise we'd circle back to this question. So for
Joanna Lovering: Oh.
Kelly Duggan: the people managers [01:39:00] that are listening to this, the folks who with the genuine heart are trying to help their people increase their executive presence.
'cause it is, when I worked in hr, it was the number one piece of feedback that managers would say like, they just need to work on their executive presence. Like they know how to do the work, I wanna help them. Achieve, achieve, but would really freeze up when they had to communicate that message. What is a healthy, positive way?
Um, again, without like, we don't wanna be fake here, how can people really approach what can be a really difficult conversation in a way that the, uh, the person receiving that feedback could hear it?
Joanna Lovering: The way to do that is to focus on the impact and not necessarily focus on the behavior. What I mean by this is I. When I'm making this up, when someone shows to [01:40:00] a meeting wearing, I'm making this up, cargo shorts and flip flops, and, and they don't work for a startup. Because so many
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: at startups, uh, wear that kind of
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, because environment matters, right?
Joanna Lovering: big, presentation with ELT and they show up wearing flip flops and cargo shorts and a hoodie and a, and a free t-shirt that they got for that manager that needs to give the feedback to that person instead of focusing on, you can't wear that. Instead, the conversation is around the impact or the potential impact that it had on all the other people. in other words, it gives that person the benefit of the doubt that they didn't think about that impact. So you could say something like, listen, um, what I am afraid [01:41:00] of when. When we wear more casual clothes, what I'm afraid of is that ELT especially so and so, isn't gonna take you seriously. I am afraid that they're not gonna hear you, and that's a problem for all of us, right? So they can't deny that they wanna make the impact that they wanna make. And so hopefully they can change their behavior because. The impact is important enough. If we just focus on the behavior or the thing that you saw or the thing that you heard, right? Then it becomes about rules and it becomes about being a good little soldier, and that doesn't feel good for anyone over the age of, I don't know, 15
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, if you can get it that long.
Joanna Lovering: right? You can't wear that.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: [01:42:00] So. That is my advice is focus on the impact that behavior has on you, the team, the project, the company, the, the executives, whatever.
It's,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: that's my advice. Focus on the impact
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, I think that's huge because
Joanna Lovering: because
Kelly Duggan: as we've talked about multiple times, it, it's, it takes work to see this as outcome driven. Work and not personal driven. And when you get into executive presence conversations, I think it's so important for managers to remember, you know, there the, the, the listener is going to be hardwired to go personal.
Right? It's going to feel personal. And when you take the approach that you just shared, I think it sets that conversation up as. Outcome driven and, and keeping us in that space. Um, 'cause I'm sure you, like if someone had had a conversation like this with you, instead of telling you, you've, you're too [01:43:00] loud and have crazy hair, you would've felt a whole lot differently about that situation.
Joanna Lovering: I would've felt so much different if someone said, you know, I, I'm, I'm worried that, um, not everyone can participate because of the amount of time you spend talking in meetings. Something like that. I would be more amenable to. To affecting that impact. Then Joanna, you talk too much,
Kelly Duggan: Right.
Joanna Lovering: which feels very rule driven,
Kelly Duggan: World driven and it feels you, right? It feels like an attack on you instead of a shift in how we are going to achieve a mutual goal.
Joanna Lovering: That's it.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: it. And that's the key for any leader that needs to give feedback, frankly, on anything.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. I.
Joanna Lovering: on something where, where the other person can [01:44:00] become defensive they feel like it's personal. I mean, wouldn't you feel like it's personal? So. Um, yeah, focusing on the impact. You could even add a little, like, know it wasn't your intention, but blah, blah.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Impact. Impact. So you could say, I know you didn't mean to even give them the benefit of the doubt that way, and then together we can collaborate in order to meet this mutual goal.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's amazing how far treating people like people can take you in life, right?
Joanna Lovering: Listen,
Kelly Duggan: Oh, my.
Joanna Lovering: Call me. Call me if anyone needs a little help
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: like people
Kelly Duggan: Well, perfect transition. I, I have so enjoyed this conversation. I could talk your ear off about this stuff all day long.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Um, and one of these days, uh, I'm [01:45:00] signing up and we're just gonna do a whole closet edit for me once I, once I can figure out what my postpartum self is gonna be looking like here.
Um, how can people follow along with you? How can they work with you? Where can they find you?
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, head to my website. It's www dot copper. Copper is the color of my hair, copper and rise.com. So copper color of my hair. And rise up in your life. That's what it is. Copper me copper. Rise up. So copper and rise.com. I am on LinkedIn, of course, under Joanna Lovering, and I'm also on the gram at Copper and Rise and spell out and a and d.
Kelly Duggan: Great. Well, I hope everyone does go and find you. I love all of your, you're so active on LinkedIn and your content is phenomenal. So, um,
Joanna Lovering: you.
Kelly Duggan: I hope everybody follows along.
Joanna Lovering: labor of love because [01:46:00] boy, media's not my favorite. I'll tell you.
Kelly Duggan: Well, you would never know. You would never know by that presence you're putting up, let me tell you. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: you. darling. Thank
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Joanna. I look forward to chatting with you soon, and thanks everyone for joining us today. I.
Joanna Lovering: everybody.
Kelly Duggan: For this point in September. Okay. Um, I'm gonna just take a deep breath, read this over in my head one time.
Welcome to the Love What You Do podcast. I'm Kelly Dugan, former HR executive turned career coach, and I'm here each week sharing strategies and stories to help you take action and create a career you love. Welcome to the podcast everyone. I am so excited to have our guest here with us today, Joanna Levering.
Welcome to the podcast. Joanna is a leadership and presence consultant. She's a [01:47:00] coach. She is an amazing facilitator, and she's gonna be here today talking to us all about how we can increase our executive presence, why it's important, and share a little bit about the amazing career path that made you an expert in all of these areas.
So welcome, Joanna.
Joanna Lovering: Thanks so much for having me.
Kelly Duggan: Of course. Thank you for being here. So I start almost all of our podcasts off with the same question to ground us. Tell us a little bit about the career path that got you to where you are today, which is doing all of this amazing coaching and consulting on executive presence.
Joanna Lovering: Well, you know, as I think back through my career, there are a few common threads. So, you know, in, in, instead of just doing a chronology of my resume, what I wanna make sure that people know is what's really important when you tell your story in, in my opinion, is to talk about. The [01:48:00] values and the common threads that we can see throughout.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: I think about it, I have a common thread of wanting to help people reach their potential and feel more grounded in that potential. I also have a common thread of aesthetics and loving being creative with what you can see with your eyes, and I love being around people. am so extroverted that I get so much energy just from being around people. my career started in the world of beauty marketing in cubicle land. I was working at L'Oreal. I. I decided to go back to graduate school for organizational psychology where I focused on leadership development and coaching. And since then I've worked in both corporate and smaller startup arenas [01:49:00] as a facilitator and a coach.
For the world of leadership development and talent management, so helping people through courses like management courses, as well as one-on-one coaching, helping them be better leaders.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: managers too, and there is a difference between leading and managing, but really just stop sucking at being leaders. Get your communication skills under control and be more consistent and in front of your team to garner trust that. Is what I do. Like I said, I've done it in larger corporate arenas as well. Like, like JetBlue, Tiffany and Company NBC Universal, and then some smaller startups like Daily Burn. and now here I am, eight years in, I've had my own business.
Wow.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh, that's incredible. I, [01:50:00] Joanna, you and I met it, it through coaching, actually we did some resume work together as you were starting to really break into a lot of facilitation and. I had the opportunity of getting to hear your career story in such detail. Um, and you have one of the most fascinating backgrounds of anybody that I've had the joy of getting to work with.
I I, no, I, I,
Joanna Lovering: gosh.
Kelly Duggan: I truly mean that yet. Like, 'cause you have done it all.
Joanna Lovering: good thing or a bad thing.
Kelly Duggan: It's a great thing. Oh, well, for a career nerd, it is an amazing thing.
Joanna Lovering: sure.
Kelly Duggan: just, the diversification that you've had, not only with the, the corporate clients you've gotten to work with in full time, time capacities, but also like getting to bring in this like entertainment industry flair and the fashion passion that you have.
Like, uh, it is what I think really makes you such a unique personality [01:51:00] to help people with their executive presence because you're coming at it from so many different angles.
Joanna Lovering: Thank you. Well, you know, my background in leadership development, you know that it's organizational psychology is my education. PS my undergrad was in performance as well,
Kelly Duggan: Ah,
Joanna Lovering: stuff. Okay.
Kelly Duggan: very nice.
Joanna Lovering: very, very used to being on stage. And the fact of the matter is, is that no matter where we are, whether we're physically in the room or. On a Zoom room, when we are at work, we are on stage. Whether we like it or not. Some believe me, I know some days you, you don't want to be on stage, but people are looking and so my thought is why not take some of those data points that people are taking in about you and frankly, making a judgment about you and why not ratchet them up a little bit or optimize them so that you can.
[01:52:00] Influence people more positively have more trusting work relationships. Why not? So there are ways to do that, it how you speak, how you act, as well as how you look. And I know that we'll get into it. So, Yeah, I, I love the fact that my career has been a patchwork quilt. I've always been that type of person. Um, and it kind of melds all of the things that I love. I love working with people. I love helping them reach their potential and feel confident in it, and I love that there's a creative aspect that I need in my life as well.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that patchwork quilt is such a beautiful example of. What we, how we wanna approach what our own presence should be, right? Like it should be this kind of pulling from [01:53:00] everything and, and who we are. I could not agree with you more about that. We're always on stage in some capacity.
I think one of the things that I talk about, uh, in my coaching is personal brand and. Even when you think you don't have a personal brand, you do because it's what people are saying about you when you're not in the room. And I think that so closely ties to your work with executive presence. How would you, how do you define it?
Like when you're first working with a client and they're like, Hey, I want to get a promotion, or I want to get a, a interview for this role. Like, how do you even, I, I feel like executive presence particularly is this amorphous. Term leadership too. Right? So how do you define that and make it tangible for people?
Joanna Lovering: The way I define executive presence is through three pillars, and this is science backed by the way. I didn't make this up. just made the words my own.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: It's all about how you speak, words that you say, and the way that you sound when you say them,
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: the way you act. Be it when you're under pressure or when you're excited or when you're angry, how do people take you in? And then how you look. How you look has to do with body language, gestures, facial expressions, and yes, what you are wearing. And frankly, what is in some ways annoying. I hate it, but. People will take in the data points with their eyes before anything else. You don't even have to [01:55:00] speak, you don't have to say a word, and people are already making a judgment about you based on what they see.
Again, body language, facial expressions, gestures, and what you're wearing.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: why not ratchet that up? And I do wanna. I wanna be really careful to say, when I say optimize those data points, what I don't mean is performing as someone you're not. Or conforming to some sort of societal standard of femininity or masculinity or anything in between, right? I mean, the feminist in me has zero interest in conforming to traditional ideals of what a woman is at work for me. Right. So what it's really about is being grounded and confident in exactly who [01:56:00] you are, knowing that you have a goal. And your goal is to, I'm making this up. Your goal that day is to convince your CEO that you need more budget for this project. So knowing CEO, how can you speak, look, and act that you can reach your goal more efficiently?
Kelly Duggan: I love that approach, that it's,
Joanna Lovering: what it's about.
Kelly Duggan: yeah, it's about.
Joanna Lovering: presence just isn't in a vacuum. That's what I wanna make sure people know.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I love that perspective of it being outcome driven instead of being, because it, it can feel really personal, right. And be like, I don't wanna be someone I'm not, I don't wanna be acting just as you said, I don't wanna be performing, but also I still have to get this thing done. And balancing those two must be that, that must be kind of the secret sauce, is figuring out how to walk that line.[01:57:00]
Joanna Lovering: 100%. And listen, this stems from, and I have a story for you. Um, this stemmed from when I was working at a company that you have heard of, that your listeners have absolutely heard of. Um, and I felt like my. Personhood was being critiqued when my executive presence was being well criticized in some way.
And I'm not saying that this person who told me that my laugh was too loud, that I walked too loud and that my hair was too crazy, I.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: So
Kelly Duggan: doesn't feel great.
Joanna Lovering: that doesn't feel great, I have to say that that feeling of, um, I felt attacked from a personal standpoint and [01:58:00] I also felt stuck, and that was the piece that I really needed to get out of the attacked thing I could. I, I actually do think she was attacking me, but that, that's neither here nor there. Yes, she got fired three months later, but, but felt totally stuck in. my, in the way that I was showing up. Not to say that I wanted to completely change who I was showing up. It's not like I wanted to straighten my hair every day or not be as loud, I felt stuck because I felt like I only had one way of showing up and all of a sudden that wasn't working for the important people in the room. And so I needed a way to be a little bit more fluid, but still feel like me. And that's what executive presence is. I am an extroverted [01:59:00] person, but I have the ability to be quiet and introspective and a good listener. sometimes that part of me needed to come out. So executive presence is all about being intentional about how you're showing up so that you can make the impact that you wanna make.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I love that because I, I'm willing to bet there's someone listening to this podcast right now who feels that feeling of being stuck. I think that resonates. I know it's resonated with clients that I've worked with in the past around. When you get that feedback about your executive presence, it's impossible for it not to feel personal.
Um, and I'd love to get in with you, like how, I'd love to have a conversation at some point in here about how managers can approach that conversation so that it feels like it's coming from a place of, of, of benefit. But, uh, I don't wanna derail us too much, but I. I, I think there are people who feel stuck or maybe they're very introverted, and how do I show up in an [02:00:00] extroverted environment when that's not me without, without feeling fake?
So, so how do you approach this with your clients? I, I, I love the model that you shared with us right around, it's about what you say, it's about how you act and it's about what people see. But how do you take that and, and get people to actually change their executive presence? What are, what's some of the coaching that you do with them?
Joanna Lovering: So, uh, again, I use my words really, really, um, particularly here because what I'm not interested in is for people to change or perform. That sounds, I mean, unless you're someone on, on the other end of this, one of your listeners is a professional actor,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you can keep performing.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, you can keep performing, but I don't think it's worth it to perform as someone you're not. What I do think is worth it though, what I call try it [02:01:00] on. Okay. This is the. It's also not fake it till you make it, because I'm not interested in anyone having to fake anything, but try it on and see if it fits. So the, the approach that I have is, listen, I. You know what your goal is? This person in front of you probably communicates, I'm making this up, but this person in front of you might communicate differently than you you are a highly detailed in the weeds quality focused person. And your, uh, your VP not someone who deals with details. They are, they speak in bullet points. They write their emails in bullet points. would say try it on. I bet there is a part of you doesn't need to write in prose every [02:02:00] time with every single detail. So try it on and see if you can match that other person's.
This is just the communication style, so
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: part. But what I'm trying to say is if we can think about our audience, here's my theater background, but if we can think about our audience as well as the goal. is the most efficient way to get at that goal? Through that audience, know that it is. In order to make them more comfortable, trust you more, that in this case we can match their communication style. It's gonna feel weird for you trying it on, you know, we don't always put on clothes that like, feel right to us, right?
Kelly Duggan: Oh yeah. No.
Joanna Lovering: if it feels wrong, we throw it
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: But if it, if it's something that we have to get used [02:03:00] to. Maybe try it again and again and see if it helps us get to our goal.
Kelly Duggan: I love that.
Joanna Lovering: or the lens that I take.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm. That makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. And I love what you're sharing around communication style because
Joanna Lovering: That was just an example,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. But it makes, it's, again, it, it goes back to the point of taking the personal. Out it, right? We have ways how we show up as communicators and we don't have to change that to meet others where they are, how they communicate.
Um, and I've not really thought about that as an essential part of the executive presence before. So I'm so glad that you pointed that out because I think that's incredibly important. It's, uh, what is the line that I have heard throughout my career, treat others how they wanna be treated. Instead of the, the golden rule of, you know, treat others how you wanna be treated.
Sometimes it's all right, how do I need to communicate with this person to be in, to be interpreted [02:04:00] as myself in a way that they can actually interpret
Joanna Lovering: Yes, exactly. How can we make it easy for them to take you in
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: heard and that they say, yes, that's
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. And that they say yes. Yeah. And you could still be you, but in a way that they can see you, um, instead of faking it.
Joanna Lovering: PS that's influencing.
Kelly Duggan: You are so right.
Joanna Lovering: is. So ex executive presence is the combination of influencing plus personal brand.
Kelly Duggan: Wow.
Joanna Lovering: And good leaders are able to take that influencing piece and be a bit more fluid than most fluid in accordance to who is in their audience, who's in front of them.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Yes, it is not easy.
Kelly Duggan: It is not. It is not. And
Joanna Lovering: not easy.
Kelly Duggan: anytime you're dealing with people, is it ever easy, right? It's worth it. It's a joy. But people are people. It, it's not formulaic, you [02:05:00] know? It, it's, it's going to have this, um, uh, air of improv at all times.
Joanna Lovering: Oh, 100%. And, and I will say this, so many of my clients, so many of my clients, it's almost like going to therapy, right? It's like, why am I doing all the work? This is hard for me. They need to do the work. I say, well, uh, pass them my info.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you're just such a, I take referrals right now.
Joanna Lovering: I
Kelly Duggan: No, but that's so true where we started this conversation even around with the looks, right? Like, okay, we might hate the fact that somebody is judging us by the way that we look.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: But we can't fight that battle in the moment, right? Yeah. We can hate it and also have to operate in a world as if, right?
Like both things can be true at the same time. Um, because we can spend so much time hoping that someone else changes and we're still losing [02:06:00] by waiting for them to change.
Joanna Lovering: W Right. And the fact is, is that especially, unless we give them direct feedback, which most people don't feel comfortable doing, gonna change because people can't read between the lines.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Right?
Kelly Duggan: It's very true.
Joanna Lovering: So, it's so much easier for you to be fluid and be intentional, then wait for them to change.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, it's so true.
Joanna Lovering: if we could take a little bit more of an active stance in our career or in our lives influencing instead of waiting for things to happen, oh my God, where would we be?
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. But those, those are the moments. I think when we, we talk about these career changing moments that you experience. I think when you're able to master the stuff that you teach on and what we're talking about today. That can be one of those moments that [02:07:00] really unlocks opportunity for you in your career.
Uh, and we talk about leadership and we use the word like executive presence. You don't have to be an executive for this to be valuable.
Joanna Lovering: That's just the vocabulary word.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Right. Like this, no matter where you are in your career, the foundations that Joanna's talking to us about, like that stuff, it matters right out the gate, all the way up to the CEO and uh, it's just horse, same horse, different color, right?
Joanna Lovering: One, 100% executive presence is for everyone. And it can be at work, it can be in your social circles, in your communities, uh, because like I said, it is personal brand plus influencing. We have to do that every day.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: it's exhausting, but we have to do that every day.
Kelly Duggan: And I, one of the things that I have not thought of before this conversation is. When you're [02:08:00] in job search mode, like maybe you're between positions, you're putting yourself out there. I talk a lot about the importance of personal brand, but that influencing piece, like you can have a lot of power as an interviewee, as someone who is on the job search side.
By tapping into some of these skills and leveraging not only your personal brand, but also the influencing to make it a full executive presence approach, I think could be really beneficial.
Joanna Lovering: 100%. And I think a lot of us already know, we already know this. We just don't put it in the, through the lens of presence. So for, for example, uh. This is like job searching 1 0 1, but we all know that you might have different versions of your resume according to what type of job you're applying for.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: person, same experience, but you're going to highlight [02:09:00] different pieces of your experience in order to entice the recruiter.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Take that concept and put it into you,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Same person, but according to the goal, the job you
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: the recruiter, the the person that's in front of you, you're going to mold and you're going to be fluid with how you talk about your experience.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: So it's kind of like, I'm glad you mentioned, I'm glad you mentioned that because. Frankly, I don't know if I've ever thought about it either, but it's kind of the same idea
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: multiple resumes at the same time. The same person, but just applying for different jobs.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, it's how are you targeting? Uh, and yeah. Yeah. It's the, it's the, uh, embodied vision. Yeah. A hundred percent.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: And so we talked, we've talked a little bit about the [02:10:00] communication piece and the speaking and, and understanding other people's communication styles. One of my favorite things about getting to follow you on, uh, LinkedIn and on Instagram is how you're able to talk about fashion and some of like how we can show up physically.
So, like, you know, one of the famous rules we're, we're recording this the Tuesday after Labor Day. Uh, here I am wearing, wearing a white shirt. I, uh, I always just applied that don't wear right after Labor Day to the, to the white pants, but
Joanna Lovering: Oh.
Kelly Duggan: I, I'm sure.
Joanna Lovering: then I'll say, wear whatever the fuck you want. I
Kelly Duggan: Right.
Joanna Lovering: come on.
Kelly Duggan: I was just gonna say, having talked to you, I think you're about to tell me screw those rules, which I love.
But what are some of the like tips and tricks for people who are trying to show up, whether it be on a virtual meeting or show up in the boardroom, um, in a way that they are going to be able to be seen as credible? Like what, what is some of the advice that you give?
Joanna Lovering: Sure. So I [02:11:00] actually have this non-math, math equation. Um, so many of my clients are women in stem, and so when I give them some guardrails in the form of an equation, they just eat it up. So here it is in order for us to build, put together outfits. And for those of you who aren't watching this, I'm doing air quotes, put together, everyone says, I just wanna look put together. I just wanna look put together. So I'm like, okay, how do I define, put together? Well, here it is. Here's the definition. the line, the V and the rule of three. I'll
Kelly Duggan: this is,
Joanna Lovering: time. Yeah,
Kelly Duggan: I need to be taking notes.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. The line, the V and the rule of three, and now I promise that anytime you go into your closet, you're gonna have little Joanna on your shoulder, the line, the V and the rule of three. Okay. [02:12:00] So what is that, by the way, these are some guardrails that are for those who identify as women, um. can talk about male fashion, but it's a, it's a little bit different.
Kelly Duggan: Okay.
Joanna Lovering: second, second caveat
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: is that I'm taking into account the other people in the room, the, the audience. Okay? And so you may hear some, some. of traditional gender roles
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: ways that people define traditional, um, women's, women's bodies. And the feminist in me, this is a caveat. The feminist in me says, all that shit. And then the, the coach in me says, yeah, but you're not doing this in a vacuum. So we do have to remember
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: are other [02:13:00] people.
And what's your goal
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: is to influence them positively, know, we are working on changing the game, but the game isn't totally different yet.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: That's my, that's my second caveat. The line, the V and the rule of three. What is it? Okay. The line is. one, in order to look put together, we need a line that goes across our smallest part of our waist.
So at the bottom of our ribs, if we do like a, I'm a little teapot right now,
Kelly Duggan: Yes.
Joanna Lovering: I'm a little teapot. Okay? You can feel where your torso kind of creases at the bottom of your ribs.
Kelly Duggan: Yes.
Joanna Lovering: the smallest part of our waist, and if we can emphasize that line either, I don't know, a belt or the end of a crop jacket or a tucked in shirt and your pan [02:14:00] or like a half tucked, tucked in shirt your pants end right there. That is going to, that's going to influence other people positively because they're going to see the proportions of your body. And it's, we're animals, we're monkeys, right? And so we like symmetry and we like correct proportions. that's one of them. The line. Okay, that's number one.
Kelly Duggan: You're, you're giving me so much justification for my millennial tuck that I cannot give up with my.
Joanna Lovering: I love the millennial Tuck. I mean, am also an elder millennial, so
Kelly Duggan: I, I am right in that millennial and I've, I've like, oh, the millennial tuck. I'm like, well call it, as you see it, I, I'm, I'm tucking, can't take it away from me.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. exactly. Okay. The line. That was the line. Then the V. The V is. Um, on either [02:15:00] side of your neck, you need something, anything that points down at any angle down towards your feet either side of your neck down, so that can be. A v-neck. It could be a necklace, it can be the lapels of a jacket. Right now, what do I have? Everything here is actually, um, rounded, but I do have my little cords and it counts, baby. It counts.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. That's great.
Joanna Lovering: it, it counts. I know it's ridiculous.
Kelly Duggan: accidental V this morning.
Joanna Lovering: then you have it.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: have it. Because you have the collar of your shirt. Exactly.
Kelly Duggan: love that.
Joanna Lovering: So that's the line and the V. And then the rule of three is a little bit more like where the science becomes an art, so many of my clients wear only [02:16:00] two items whenever they leave a top and a bottom.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: talking about shoes here, just the top and the bottom. The rule of three is that we need to wear three significant items on our body. Not including shoes.
Kelly Duggan: Oh.
Joanna Lovering: So it needs to be a top, a bottom and something else. There's gotta be something else to tie the whole thing together. That's something else can be an accessory, it could be a scarf, it could be a bangle bracelet, it could be a belt, um, it could be a jacket.
It could be my incredibly understated frames. ha.
Kelly Duggan: Which I love.
Joanna Lovering: Thank you.
Kelly Duggan: They're gorgeous.
Joanna Lovering: And really the rule of three is more like the rule of at least three, because you could have four, maybe you could have five. But once we get to six or seven, I'm like. [02:17:00] Slow your roll.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Yep. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: girl, in order to prevent us from only wearing two items. And then people are gonna say, well, what if I wear a dress? I know, I know. This is okay. This is where, uh, the science becomes an art. Okay? You're gonna wear a dress so that maybe wear a dress with glasses and a headbands. I don't know. I'm making this up, but. Three significant items on your body, makes other people look at you and say, oh, she like thought about this.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: intentional today. It's that third thing that kind of ties it together. that's how I define how you put, put together outfits. PS I do entire workshops just on that. So that was a crash course.
Kelly Duggan: Notes version. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Very Spark notes, but hopefully, hopefully your listeners will walk away with the line, the v and the rule of three, and at least remember one of them.[02:18:00]
Kelly Duggan: I love that. 'cause it can be really overwhelming when I, I know when I was corporate every day, pre COVID times in the office, every day, like you get up, you start that closet and you're just like, I don't know. I don't know. Like,
Joanna Lovering: and then you go for the same thing and like whatever's in the middle, you're
Kelly Duggan: yep. I.
Joanna Lovering: I guess I'll wear these pants and this top again.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, and then sometimes you accidentally stumble across the the line, the V and the rule of three without knowing it, and you just are like, wow, this looks really good. I feel really powerful. But what I love about what we just did here was you define the language to be able to replicate it instead of accidentally just finding this outfit and then having to wear that same outfit every single day, because that's what makes you feel good.
Joanna Lovering: Yes. And also notice that I'm not saying wear this color and not that also not saying, you know, um, I'm not talking about trends at all. I'm not talking about. Patterns or prints [02:19:00] or ruffles or whatever that is where your personal brand and your preferences can come through. Whether, you know, you, you find that you are more of a ethereal, uh, like wood nph or if you want to, I don't know, look like a badass on Fifth Avenue or, you know. line, the v and the rule of three can attach itself to any sort of, preferences, whether you be sporty or preppy or whatever.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: I, if I just pat myself on the back, that's what I really like about it, is that I'm not telling you I'm, I'm not telling you actually what to wear. I'm just giving you some guardrails to help. people see you.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah,
Joanna Lovering: all I want.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. And you are now going to shift how I get dressed for all of these podcasts and
Joanna Lovering: [02:20:00] you're welcome.
Kelly Duggan: I love it. I absolutely love it. So we've, we've touched on the, what you say, we've touched on the what you wear. What are some tools you can give our listeners around the act how to, how to act and behave to be able to win people over?
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. So. I think, or I know that one of the biggest topics that I talk about with my clients is what to do when anxiety,
Kelly Duggan: I.
Joanna Lovering: maybe frustration come into play. I think things can be relatively easy breezy. When we're happy and things are fine, it's when. There's something going down, shit's hitting the fan, and need to act like trusted leaders. My, I, I [02:21:00] realize this, this, this tip is going to seem so simple, yet can be so hard for people. Here's what often happens. When we're in a meeting and things are starting to get heated or we start to get stressed out, we tend to do one of two things. We either talk a mile a minute and we can't deal with silence.
Okay. That's
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, that's me.
Joanna Lovering: well. I mean, we're in, we're extroverts,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: And so we'll just ramble, speak in circles,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: run on sentences. Or for those of us who are on the opposite side of the spectrum, who are maybe not extroverted, they might not jump in at all. They might sit there and be silent. Either [02:22:00] way, you are giving up your presence because if you're not jumping in at all, you're not showing your greatness and what great ideas you have.
And then if you are overtaking this conversation, if you're just going on and on, people are gonna see you as really nervous
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: going to trust you.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: So what do you do? What do you do now for the folks like us, you and I, Kelly? The tip that I give most to people, this is gonna sound crazy. Okay. The tip is a sip. Take a sip. Yeah, take a sip.
Kelly Duggan: I love this, and now you're making me thirsty.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. So take a sip. Is give yourself and your brain the nanosecond to pause and think, and maybe [02:23:00] someone else will jump in. But if you do some sort of gesture like, okay, right, then probably no one will jump in. But what it does it is that it allows your brain to catch up with your mouth. And figure out what to say next.
The reason that we are just going on and on with run-on sentences is because we have no idea what to say next, and anxiety is taking over.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: So give yourself the nanosecond. You can do a number of things. I like. Take a sip because it actually makes you stop talking.
Kelly Duggan: Yes. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah. Other people will, you know, clench their fists and then open them, or just things to remind them of like getting rid of the energy.
But for me, take a sip is the easiest way to shut up. [02:24:00] So that's on that end of the spectrum. The folks that are feeling really nervous and they're sitting back and giving up their presence because they're not participating, I'm going to offer. A few. Let's call them courage catalysts. Okay. catalysts the way to jump in when you don't see a way in. You can also use these, I call, I also call them interruption armor, because when someone is talking over you, you might need to say something. So it's, like. Something that is burned into your brain, like an easy three to four word phrase. Like, oh, just a moment. Or, I. Let me say, or you have to figure out what [02:25:00] works for you. For some reason, it's like, it's like the sorting hat in Harry Potter. It chooses you. You don't choose it For me. Mine is if I may like some, some, like if I may like some ivory tower or something, I don't know. But it works for me and. I like if I can muster the strength and wait for someone to take a breath, maybe they're taking a sip, I can jump in with, if I may. So you have to figure out what's right for you. if I, I feel like if we just have a little something, a little. Little phrase to help us jump in. We will have the courage to do so.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes it is just getting that entry, like you, you know, what you would say. It's just figuring out how do I, how do I butt [02:26:00] in without butting in?
Joanna Lovering: I know. But the thing is, is that, well, the person speaking is gonna have to breathe at some point,
Kelly Duggan: At some point, yes. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: At some point, but also, know, so many of us, especially women, we're so afraid of people being mad at us. We are so afraid of being rude and, you know, and interrupting, butting in,
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: and I just respond to that with, would a man feel the same way? Would a man feel the same way maybe. Not always.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: of me that's like, in
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: And you might not think that what you have to say is, but inable even. So there's a part of me that says, [02:27:00] who cares? As long as you can show these other people. That you have the confidence to jump in. I think that's enough. People will remember your confidence more than exactly what you say.
Kelly Duggan: That's so true.
Joanna Lovering: the, truth. So I would rather you not be super confident in exactly what you're saying or that question, oh, this is such a stupid question. Who cares? Who cares? I think what's important is showing others that you have the strength and the courage to say something.
Kelly Duggan: I could not agree with you, ma, and as I'm reflecting back on kind of some of those key moments in my career before. Going into coaching, consulting myself. I think where I saw real career movement [02:28:00] was when I trusted that what I had to say was going to be valuable to someone,
Joanna Lovering: someone,
Kelly Duggan: and that if not, nobody will care.
Nobody's gonna care. If not, but
Joanna Lovering: will care.
Kelly Duggan: most of the time somebody found value in it, and sometimes that value is not necessarily agreeing with you, but it's. Sparking a different idea, and now you were a catalyst to help something happen. It's like, you know,
Joanna Lovering: You
Kelly Duggan: I, I'm not a sports person. I feel like there's probably a soccer analogy in there somewhere, from what I've seen from my husband interpret with soccer.
But I, I, I can't, I can't make it in good heart. But, you know, there's an assist, right? You can be the person that's setting up the assist, um, in the meeting.
Joanna Lovering: something about assists. Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Something. Yeah, something's going on there. Um, the jokes aside, I think those are, that's one of those key moments where you go from being a individual contributor, someone who is told what to do and do the work, [02:29:00] and to being a thought partner and someone who.
Helping to create the work that should be done. Um, and I do think that's like a really big, like almost coming of age, career moment, uh, that is so grounded in executive presence.
Joanna Lovering: it really is because it's grounded in influence and confidence.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. I.
Joanna Lovering: Right? So, and, and I would just, would challenge your listeners to say, listen, I know that a lot of people come to me and they say I need more confidence. Yeah, me too.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: think most of us do, I believe in order to get there, what we really need are some new tools to try, be it a courage catalyst, be it take a sip, be it the line, the v, the rule of three, right?
Be it, [02:30:00] uh, the communication styles thing, whatever it is, can we try it on? Know that we have more tools in our toolkit, so then at least even if we're not feeling confident, maybe other people will view us as having confidence even if we're not feeling it on the inside. Because I believe with more tools, the confidence will come.
Kelly Duggan: I completely agree with you.
Joanna Lovering: That, that's what I'm all about. Let me give you some tools to try so that the confidence will come.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, particularly when you're doing something new. Nobody, nobody, nobody. Nobody does something new for the first time and has complete confidence. Maybe some psychopaths out there, but very few normal people
Joanna Lovering: Oh,
Kelly Duggan: can achieve that.
Joanna Lovering: no, no, There, there are people who do you know who they are? Narcissists.
Kelly Duggan: very true.
Joanna Lovering: This is what, [02:31:00] this is
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: say to people. I say, listen, if you are not nervous about a thing that you care about, if you're not nervous, you are narciss.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, you need to be doing some self-reflection.
Joanna Lovering: Some self-reflection. For real, for real. So, I think ner like nervousness or feeling a little uncomfortable is a sign of growth,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: a sign of weakness.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Let yourself grow.
Kelly Duggan: In fact, if you're finding yourself totally confident every day you're going to work, I, as a career coach, I'm gonna challenge you to say it's time to be doing something else. Like you need to either grow in your current role, you need to find another role. Like you need to have that kind of healthy, uh, relationship with trying to achieve confidence, uh, because.
That's where your value is. That's how you're growing your value, and you're growing your salary and you're, you're moving along in your career a [02:32:00] hundred percent. Mm-hmm.
Joanna Lovering: Absolutely. Absolutely.
Kelly Duggan: So I promise we'd circle back to this question. So for
Joanna Lovering: Oh.
Kelly Duggan: the people managers that are listening to this, the folks who with the genuine heart are trying to help their people increase their executive presence.
'cause it is, when I worked in hr, it was the number one piece of feedback that managers would say like, they just need to work on their executive presence. Like they know how to do the work, I wanna help them. Achieve, achieve, but would really freeze up when they had to communicate that message. What is a healthy, positive way?
Um, again, without like, we don't wanna be fake here, how can people really approach what can be a really difficult conversation in a way that the, uh, the person receiving that feedback could hear it?
Joanna Lovering: The way to do that is to focus on the impact and not necessarily focus on the behavior. What I mean by [02:33:00] this is I. When I'm making this up, when someone shows to a meeting wearing, I'm making this up, cargo shorts and flip flops, and, and they don't work for a startup. Because so many
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: at startups, uh, wear that kind of
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, because environment matters, right?
Joanna Lovering: big, presentation with ELT and they show up wearing flip flops and cargo shorts and a hoodie and a, and a free t-shirt that they got for that manager that needs to give the feedback to that person instead of focusing on, you can't wear that. Instead, the conversation is around the impact or the potential impact that it had on all the other people. in other words, it gives that person the benefit of the [02:34:00] doubt that they didn't think about that impact. So you could say something like, listen, um, what I am afraid of when. When we wear more casual clothes, what I'm afraid of is that ELT especially so and so, isn't gonna take you seriously. I am afraid that they're not gonna hear you, and that's a problem for all of us, right? So they can't deny that they wanna make the impact that they wanna make. And so hopefully they can change their behavior because. The impact is important enough. If we just focus on the behavior or the thing that you saw or the thing that you heard, right? Then it becomes about rules and it becomes about being a good little soldier, and that doesn't feel good [02:35:00] for anyone over the age of, I don't know, 15
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, if you can get it that long.
Joanna Lovering: right? You can't wear that.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: So. That is my advice is focus on the impact that behavior has on you, the team, the project, the company, the, the executives, whatever.
It's,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: that's my advice. Focus on the impact
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, I think that's huge because
Joanna Lovering: because
Kelly Duggan: as we've talked about multiple times, it, it's, it takes work to see this as outcome driven. Work and not personal driven. And when you get into executive presence conversations, I think it's so important for managers to remember, you know, there the, the, the listener is going to be hardwired to go personal.
Right? It's going to feel personal. And when you take the approach that you just shared, I think it sets that conversation up as. [02:36:00] Outcome driven and, and keeping us in that space. Um, 'cause I'm sure you, like if someone had had a conversation like this with you, instead of telling you, you've, you're too loud and have crazy hair, you would've felt a whole lot differently about that situation.
Joanna Lovering: I would've felt so much different if someone said, you know, I, I'm, I'm worried that, um, not everyone can participate because of the amount of time you spend talking in meetings. Something like that. I would be more amenable to. To affecting that impact. Then Joanna, you talk too much,
Kelly Duggan: Right.
Joanna Lovering: which feels very rule driven,
Kelly Duggan: World driven and it feels you, right? It feels like an attack on you instead of a shift in how we are going to achieve a mutual goal.
Joanna Lovering: That's it.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: it. And that's the key for [02:37:00] any leader that needs to give feedback, frankly, on anything.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. I.
Joanna Lovering: on something where, where the other person can become defensive they feel like it's personal. I mean, wouldn't you feel like it's personal? So. Um, yeah, focusing on the impact. You could even add a little, like, know it wasn't your intention, but blah, blah.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: Impact. Impact. So you could say, I know you didn't mean to even give them the benefit of the doubt that way, and then together we can collaborate in order to meet this mutual goal.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's amazing how far treating people like people can take you in life, right?
Joanna Lovering: Listen,
Kelly Duggan: Oh, my.
Joanna Lovering: Call me. Call me if anyone needs a little help
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: like people[02:38:00]
Kelly Duggan: Well, perfect transition. I, I have so enjoyed this conversation. I could talk your ear off about this stuff all day long.
Joanna Lovering: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Um, and one of these days, uh, I'm signing up and we're just gonna do a whole closet edit for me once I, once I can figure out what my postpartum self is gonna be looking like here.
Um, how can people follow along with you? How can they work with you? Where can they find you?
Joanna Lovering: Yeah, head to my website. It's www dot copper. Copper is the color of my hair, copper and rise.com. So copper color of my hair. And rise up in your life. That's what it is. Copper me copper. Rise up. So copper and rise.com. I am on LinkedIn, of course, under Joanna Lovering, and I'm also on the gram at Copper and Rise and spell out and a and d.
Kelly Duggan: Great. Well, I hope everyone does go and find you. I [02:39:00] love all of your, you're so active on LinkedIn and your content is phenomenal. So, um,
Joanna Lovering: you.
Kelly Duggan: I hope everybody follows along.
Joanna Lovering: labor of love because boy, media's not my favorite. I'll tell you.
Kelly Duggan: Well, you would never know. You would never know by that presence you're putting up, let me tell you. Yeah.
Joanna Lovering: you. darling. Thank
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Joanna. I look forward to chatting with you soon, and thanks everyone for joining us today.
