Kelly Duggan
===
Kelly Duggan: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Love What You Do podcast. I'm Kelly Dugan, former HR executive turned career coach, and I'm here. Each episode is sharing stories and strategies to help you find a career you love. Welcome back everybody. I am so excited for this episode of the podcast. We have Jenna Rogers here with us today.
Jenna, thank you so much for joining us on The Love What You Do podcast. Jenna, I started following your story when you started to take Coil, your, uh, entrepreneur company that you own, um, full-time and you've been on quite a journey before then and since then. Uh, and I'm so excited to dive into it. We have such similar paths, I think in a lot of ways, and I just can't wait to talk all about everything that you bring to the table as far as career advice, but also the fascinating career journey that you have had.
So, catch our listeners up. What is a little bit of your career story of how you've gotten where you are today?
Jenna Rogers: Well, thank you, and I'm equally [00:01:00] excited to learn more from you and your story. I feel like the more you talk to people, the more that your paths, whether they diverge or they cross, or they just run along in parallel, I feel like that helps us feel a little less alone on our journey and knowing that, like we don't have it all figured out, but then sometimes we might, and then we feel a little bit better.
So that's the journey that I'm on right now of Having it all figured out, but making the best decisions for this season of life within the family because. Before I became a working mom and before I had kids, uh, you had seasons throughout the year, but not really seasons of your life. It was, you went to work, you took a vacation, you took a couple days off here and there, but there wasn't really these.
Uh, high and low seasons that motherhood brings. And so I've really had to learn how to adapt my goals and ambitions and my to-do list to [00:02:00] those seasons, which has then been reflected in my career. You know, where I, before kids, I was able to work, you know, a full-time position in the tech world within sales, and I was also able to go back full-time and get my master's degree. Um. Then I had a child and decided to go to a, a smaller company, um, that wasn't as quote unquote corporate, ended up getting let go from that position coming off maternity leave. Um, deciding to take my quote unquote side hustle that I had for four years full time, um, in, you know, diving headfirst into entrepreneurship because that's what worked for. Myself with, you know, two under two and two littles at the time, um, to now going back and calling myself a corporate owner again, where I work in corporate and I'm an entrepreneur. Um, and again, really just trying to figure it out and recognizing that this season, maybe six months, maybe two years, maybe five years, I [00:03:00] really don't. Have this affinity attachment to my title or the position that I'm in because I know how quickly seasons can change.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. So insightful. It was only being six months into this motherhood thing. I already feel like I've been in two completely different seasons from infant, baby, baby to now like this six month old and figuring out how do you work around a completely different schedule already. And if you would've asked me at the beginning, I would've been like, oh yeah, like this.
We're in it now. We're in motherhood for a little while. And I'm like, oh wait. Just kidding. Working motherhood means something very, very differently. Even four weeks apart from itself.
Jenna Rogers: Yes. Four, four weeks. Yeah. And then it changes again. Like the minute that you get a hang of it, it's going to be thrown upside down again. So,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I, I, well, I'm glad to hear that from, it's always good for me to talk to moms who have been doing this working mom thing for [00:04:00] longer because, um, it's just always an adventure and I love getting to talk to people who have found the tips and trick to make it work.
Jenna Rogers: It's
Kelly Duggan: Uh.
Jenna Rogers: to listen to people talk about it too. 'cause I also feel like, I mean, I, you know, I have two sister-in-laws as well, and they both, you work full-time, they have three kids. And when we're in these family situations, we're not talking about like, you know, goals and dreams and hardships and all that stuff, but when do you have time to carve out two, talk about these topics with people.
So it's not that it's. A taboo topic to talk about, but it's just, we just genuinely don't have time to talk about this stuff. So we turn to mom groups on Facebook and we turn to podcasts and we turn to social media to try and get this community or comradery of, okay, I'm not the only one going through this.
Um, so while I think, you know, the world of social media and podcasts and the people that we are. We have access to now is great. I also think there's a big opportunity for us to go back into our community, which is like our friends, our [00:05:00] siblings, you know, our spouses, um, to have these
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: too.
Kelly Duggan: A hundred percent. And I do feel like, especially in the world of AI that we are entering into, there's just such a call to find real humanity again. And as much as I love videos, like I would never have been connected with you, Jennifer, it weren't for, you popped up on my TikTok page right after you had had your second little one and I was like, oh, there I, I.
Totally understand where we were trying to have a baby at that point. And I was like, man, this is where I see myself in a year or two from now. And I just, without that, that TikTok connection, we wouldn't be sitting here right now. But there's still something to be said from being able to like just go out for a walk with another mom at a stroller that you just can't replace.
Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: Amen. It's that both end, uh, conversation.
Kelly Duggan: absolutely. So if you don't mind, take me through a little bit, Jenna, I'm so fascinated, like [00:06:00] getting laid off, coming back from maternity leave had to be such a hurdle because you're in that vulnerable postpartum place now you're being laid off. How did you conquer that and how did you make the decision to go into Curability full-time at at that, for that chapter?
Jenna Rogers: Yeah, I actually feel like I would, I'm still gonna like, get emotional talking about it because it was, I don't think I really fully understood the gravity of the situation when I was in it, because I am. Um. my identity is so tied to my output and my work ethic, and it's something that I've, I've been in therapy for like eight years now.
Like it's something that I'm actively working on, and yet that was such a blow to my ego, my identity, what I thought, I knew, what I thought I'd value. Um, and then you. That would, that would be the same blow if I got laid off when I was 24. Right. And like didn't [00:07:00] have the responsibilities of two kids, a mortgage, a marriage, um, let alone in this very vulnerable period of my life, to your point, freshly postpartum.
Like I was 12 weeks postpartum, which is just, you know, I look back at videos and I just have so much like emotion towards it because it was just such a vulnerable and raw state and. were a lot of hard conversations. Um, and I vividly remember, you know, sitting. The reason that, uh, part of the reason that I also got let go, um, was because of childcare.
And I, my daughter was at this daycare and I put my son on 2, 3, 3 daycare with three daycare wait lists here in the city of Chicago, and he didn't get off a wait list. Until like when I needed to go back for maternity leave, he was born a little bit early, so like the timelines just didn't add up and I asked for 30 days unpaid to get me through the. [00:08:00] Wait list debacle or you know, the difference there. And they said, you either turn return at full capacity, or, or we're parting ways. Um, and I was in a client facing position, so I just, you know, when you are feeding around the clock and they don't, they're not even, know, on a sleep schedule yet, it just was not gonna be feasible. Um, and so it was in that moment where I was like, okay, do I remove him from a daycare wait list? Because that alleviates the financial. Pressure of needing a full-time job at this moment. But like I also know how hard it is to get off a daycare wait list. We were just on a wait list for six, seven months.
So like that gives me limited ability to interview and go back into the workforce. So it was this very moment and I just remember thinking it was in the car. We were sitting in the car with my husband and you know, he, it was just one of those moments where I was like, I. putting so much effort.
This was, so I got [00:09:00] let go in October and this was like a December decision that we had made and in those two months I was interviewing relentlessly. I was interviewing, I was applying, I was getting rejected left and right. it was this intentional decision of, you know, I'm putting all this effort into interviewing and applying, what if I took that same effort and applied it to my business, which I've always wanted to take full-time anyways, but I always had like a five to seven year plan of it because I had childcare costs and young kids and life to pay for and I wanted to like build a better runway. and I. Gave myself three months. I was like, all right, one quarter January to march. Um, we'll see how it goes. And I ended up getting, like, once I made that decision, I ended up getting two, consulting clients that were on retainer. Um, and I basically.
Kelly Duggan: Amazing.
Jenna Rogers: built a runway quarter by quarter. Um, and then November of 2024, I was like, wow, just made it through my first full year of business, [00:10:00] just thinking like quarter through quarter, just make it happen.
Renewed the consulting client, renewed the consulting client, get a couple more workshops, get another consulting client. Um, and so I just kind of like built it one brick at a
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: I ended up having four bricks by the end of the year.
Kelly Duggan: I absolutely love that. It almost takes the decision out of your hands. Really. All right. I'm just gonna do three months and then I'll decide, and then I'll decide, and next thing you know, you're like, wait a minute. I've been working full-time in business for a year.
Jenna Rogers: And having the flexibility to put the family first, right? Like
Kelly Duggan: Hmm.
Jenna Rogers: I, 20, 24, when I did my OKRs, uh, you know, my goals and, uh, key results for the year, there were five professional and five personal because I wanted the personal. Up there with the professional because I knew that I was gonna be taking a hit to my pay.
So I had to make, you know, make that
Kelly Duggan: Okay.
Jenna Rogers: Um, but it's always been this, if I can cover the cost of child of daycare, we're okay. Um, and that is a very sad statement [00:11:00] to make, but very real.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, a hundred percent. So, fast forward a little bit, you've recently decided to go back to putting on a corporate. I, you have to say this for me. It's every time I say it, I get tongue tied. Corporate nerd.
Jenna Rogers: yeah, you go.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: it up so you can pronounce it incorrectly. You can say someone who's an entrepreneur works in corporate. I was just like randomly combined it one day.
Kelly Duggan: No trademark that. I love it. It's amazing. Um, and I think, I truly think we're entering an era where everyone should be a cer at some level, and we could totally talk about that. But what made you decide now, like, 'cause things were going really well in your business and you still made a decision for your family to put on another hat again.
Um, what went into that decision?
Jenna Rogers: I did, and this is where I, you know, just continue to get humbled by like you think. know, it's one decision and that's gonna be it forever. Um, and then another opportunity presents itself. So this was very unique and I [00:12:00] loved the position that I was in because. This was purely out of interest instead of need.
And I think when you're operating in different mindsets, different opportunities come your way. Similar to going full-time in the business and all of a sudden these consulting clients came in. Um, this is an opportunity that, uh, yes, it's corporate. Um, I'm back in the tech, it's a startup, and I had the opportunity to work for a two female founders.
Uh, both single moms,
Kelly Duggan: Amazing.
Jenna Rogers: like very unique. Um, the CEO I've actually worked with at two other organizations, so I know her pretty well. Um, and it's an AI training and development platform. So not only was I wanting to work with the leader again and respect the, you know, founders of the company and the CEO, but it's also just like an opportunity that. Fits very well with the work I'm doing at career civility in terms of training and development through the world [00:13:00] of AI and generative ai. So it seemed like an opportunity that at a point in my career where. I don't think, like, why would I turn things down? I think I'm just in an opportunity in my career where I'm still learning.
I can say yes to these opportunities. My kids are a tad bit older. Um, so I mean, let's be honest. My son was homesick yesterday and like my daughter
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: trip on Thursday and then it's Halloween, so like. They're older,
Kelly Duggan: Oh yeah, there's no,
Jenna Rogers: as much. Yeah. But that's also, you know, one of the reasons that I said yes to this role is because have the ability and the flexibility to continue putting my family first.
Um, while getting this experience and the reality, and I said this during my interview process, the reality of working for yourself, it's incredibly scary and risky. The reality of working at a startup incredibly risky and scary, so. They're both a risk, uh, we'll, we're just gonna learn from it either [00:14:00] way.
Kelly Duggan: But this is why I love that CER term so much though, because. And I really believe we all work for ourselves, right? Like even if you're working in a corporation, even like if you have that mindset that you work for yourself, I think it opens you up to be able to accept challenges in a different way. Not get so frustrated to to take on side work to take on.
And if that is the case, it's like, oh yeah, sure, I'll take what feels like another consulting client, but with benefits and all of these other great things, why not?
Jenna Rogers: It's all, it really is about perspective, you know, which, when you enter the workforce, then you go for these. Promotions. It's like that is the end all be all. But then when you think about side hustles or working for yourself, you really flipped the idea of work, uh, on its head and you like redefine it for yourself.
And I think that's what these last two years has really forced me to do is
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: What work means to me? [00:15:00] What does your day, what do your days look like? What are your priorities? What are your values? Um, what does success look like for you? Uh, and if you don't, you're not, you know, you don't have a situation where you're let go or laid off or whatever, um, you don't have these like, you know, def career defining moments, then that's when you wake up. 10, 15, 20 years into your career and you're like, do I even like what I'm doing anymore? So I mean, let's be honest, I could still wake up in 10 years and be like, what the heck am I doing? But like right now, looking back, I'm thankful for those periods because they forced me to get uncomfortable and do that reflection and ultimately lead to this position where I have a better perspec or my view, a better or healthier perspective on corporate work.
Kelly Duggan: When you mentioned that, I'd love to know like what does work mean for you right now?
Jenna Rogers: Work for me, uh, is equally balanced [00:16:00] between being a mom first and putting the family first and corporate first. So, as I had mentioned, you know, the OKRs of half being work related, half being, you know, family related, uh. Being able to have the time and the space to ha the time the space be able to have the capacity to carry the mental load both
Kelly Duggan: Oh, I love that.
Jenna Rogers: the workplace.
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Jenna Rogers: or even having the capacity to think about how to delegate the mental load. Like there's just like these little nuances that I never would've thought about. Um. Yesterday, keeping my kid homesick. Didn't even feel guilt. Didn't even think twice about it. I was like, we're gonna get him into the doctor like that. Um,
Kelly Duggan: That's an amazing place to be.
Jenna Rogers: Yeah, it is. It is. Just going through all those years of guilt and feeling, you know, like yourself [00:17:00] and your family comes second is unacceptable and not where I wanna be so that when I define work, it's like. two pedestals and Sure. Do they ebb and flow throughout the week? Like yesterday was a little bit more of a mom day. Today's a little bit more of a work day. Tomorrow will probably be more of a work day. And then I'm off on Thursday to go to a field trip with my daughter. Right. So then, but then at the end of the week when you tally it up, it's like those pedestals are pretty even.
Kelly Duggan: You know, I think there's a lot of moms probably listening to this podcast right now who have the same feeling that that's what they want. I think a big thing that you did was you gave yourself permission to find it, and I. How did you do that? Is that, that, that's a moment right where you make up your mind, where you're like, no, I deserve this life.
And find a way to figure that patchwork quilt out. Um, it, was there a moment for you or when did you decide that this was [00:18:00] okay to go find for yourself?
Jenna Rogers: What a beautiful question, because I can imagine so many people sitting here be like, well, she's in a unique position. Or like, well, that could never apply to me because I was in this. I'm like, yeah, great. You don't have a, you know, in your office five days a week, like trying to be a partner at a law firm.
Like I could never do that. Right? so I. Absolutely. I've been there, um, and I, if it were two years ago, I'd be listening to this being like, whatever, um, I'll add that to my manifestation list. Right? Um, when you ask that question, I really think it came down to my husband and my partner allowing me to do it because I had been putting a lot of pressure on myself to have it figured out and to provide for the family and. Not feel like this failure, right? Who didn't have a job or who was unemployed. Um, and nowhere along the way was my husband. Like, you need to find a job. Like what's going? He was like, [00:19:00] take, take three months. Who get like, who cares? Like, I've got a job. Fine. Um, and so there was this. Uh, lack of pressure for me to, you know, it was, it was, I needed outside permission.
I needed an employer to let me go, and I needed a partner to give me that permission. So while you would think I gave it to myself, I think it was actually pretty, like, forced on me. So my advice would be, you know, find people who would support you during this ex exploration period. Um. Whether it's other working moms who you might not know their story of their ups and downs when they return from maternity leave. It's kind of wild. A lot of people have unconventional stories like when people bring life into this world or when women bring life into this world, like everything is turned upside down. So like start asking them like, oh, what was your experience coming back with each maternity leave too? 'cause it's [00:20:00] very different. Every
Kelly Duggan: imagine.
Jenna Rogers: Every child.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: So like, if you're not gonna get let go from your employer, great. Uh, wouldn't recommend that either. But like, you know, asking friends, going back to what we talked about at the start of this, like being in conversation with people and just like asking the questions, Hey, don't, I don't know how I'm feeling right now.
What was your experience coming back to work? Or like, how do you think about your career now? Um, could be helpful.
Kelly Duggan: I love that. I do. I think the more people that you talk to, I think, who have done some form of this, like when you mentioned yourself two years ago listening to this be like, yeah, nice pipe dream, Jenna. Right? Like I have a very similar feeling of that when I, it. For me, going into your place at the top full-time kind of spurred from actually a pregnancy loss and, and being like, oh, no.
Mental clarity. I wanna be a mom and I want to have a career that allows me to be a mom. Like no questions asked. New mission in life, right? Like that was like this turning [00:21:00] moment very similarly to you. Like that is not something I gave myself permission for. It was a circumstantial thing that happened that changed my perspective and was like, oh.
I can make this happen.
Jenna Rogers: Yep.
Kelly Duggan: Um, and you know, I, I. I want so badly for people to know that you can, you can make these shifts like the, the me before that moment and the you before this I think are, are where, are where a lot of listeners probably are today of like, how can that ever happen? And it, it happens.
One small decision at a time, just like building your business, right? Like it, it happens by giving yourself the grace and, and having others give you the grace to be able to, to find what that is. And when you talk to people who are living the life you want now, um, 99% of the time there were one time in those exact same shoes, which is one of the things I know has been really helpful to me.
Um, and YI kinda sought out this conversation, you know, just finding other kindred [00:22:00] spirits who. Are making it okay to want something different. Um, and as I feel like in the online space, I don't know if you feel this way, but that there's, it's very two-sided. Like either you're a hundred percent corporate working mom, you want like mom, boss life, or you are the homemaker homeschooler at home.
And for those of us who want like a hybrid of the two I, I think we're a smaller, I think we are actually the majority of people in the world, but the smaller minority voice in the space right now, I are. Is that something that you're feeling?
Jenna Rogers: A hundred percent. And I think the reason for that is because the, like us in the middle, it's not flashy. Like what we're doing is, it takes resilience, it takes hard work, to be honest, it's so hard. Capturing content. Like it's also just like hard to like [00:23:00] put the content out there, create the content, find the time, because you know, I'm not saying it's easy for other people, but when we're so focused on defining that for ourselves and figuring that out and living in the messy middle, we don't have much space on the ancillary to like showcase, you know,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: about it and what we're going through.
Um, but
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh, I never even thought about that. But you're so right. Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: It's,
Kelly Duggan: not a lot of time left.
Jenna Rogers: Yeah, there's just no time.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, that's one thing you're phenomenal at showing up in the social space. Jenna, like I often am like, look her, you like sick kid. If a thing is going a mile a minute and still showing up on those stories as I'm like nursing on a contact nap, being like, I, I really, really wanna be able to aspire to, to do that better.
How do you keep showing up in these spaces, um, despite like the million and one things that you've got going on?
Jenna Rogers: It's so funny that you say that because [00:24:00] I feel like I don't show up that much. And this is where if you see different people or different creators or the, you know. Sides. I'm like, wow, I'm so behind. Um, to be honest, and this is gonna go against every single social media expert, and what Meta and Instagram or TikTok tells you to do, I set very manageable goals for myself when it comes to showing up on social media.
And I'm very flexible with it. Like my VA knows that like if I don't post something that day is not whatever, um, that's
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Jenna Rogers: myself to. Post a real once or twice a week and post a static feed once a week. So like that's three posts a week. Um, and I challenge myself to get on stories or twice a week.
Like very manageable, very low lift. Um, and it's funny, I get the feedback that I'm like always showing up, da, da, da. But to me that just shows that like I don't have to do more than [00:25:00] what I'm doing, because if I'm getting on. Three times a week that at least is enough to keep brand awareness and, and awareness into like the work that I'm doing, um, and checking in with like how I can help. Um, I think that's another thing is like, I, I'm very niche in what I do. So while I don't reach a lot of people, the people I do reach, it's very consistent with who I'm talking to and connecting with, um, and getting in front of.
Kelly Duggan: I know, I think. This is an example of why consistency is so important. Like yes, because the algorithm says so, but also because people say so, like I think there's comfort in knowing, oh, Jenna's gonna show up and ask me what my communication circles are this week, and just I know that's gonna happen, right?
Like. Um, and that, that creates this bond, I think, with your audience, that [00:26:00] that is to your point, carrying you through not posting every single day. Like it's be consistent with the little bit that you're able to do. And this is the lesson I'm taking away from this conversation. Like, be consistent with that instead of shooting for the stars and feeling like you're failing.
Jenna Rogers: Yeah, and it's also like,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: be known for? Like, don't like if you wanna be known, I think you know. Known for, like if someone goes to your profile, what do you want them to take away from that? And I think you pick one thing right now, there's all this topic about like content. People aren't coming to my page for parenting advice, right?
Like to your point, they're
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: page. So if they have a situation at work or they have an email that they're struggling to write or they don't know how to word something, um, it's pretty much work related, right?
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Jenna Rogers: career related. I could name a creator off the top of my head where like if I'm like, what do I wear to this conference?
And I wanna go get like outfit inspo. That's where I would go. Or I do have mom pages, right? If I'm like struggling with baby or toddler potty training stuff, right? Like that's where I'd go. So what [00:27:00] do you want people to go to your profile for? Um, and then just show up like that twice a week.
Kelly Duggan: And that honestly, it didn't, in my opinion, even applies for people who have no aspirations of wanting to be influencers or own their own business or we're just entering a world where your social capital online matters. And it matters a lot, um, in how you land positions and how people find you. Um, and. I do think like if you're on the job market right now, figuring out what you wanna be known for in your career, again, like own your career, figure out what you wanna be known for and put some kind of content free value to help people out in that space, I think is probably one of the most valuable things you could do for your job search right now.
Jenna Rogers: This is why I was so excited to have the HR side of the conversation. Uh, could not agree more. That is. Like, whether it's LinkedIn, whether it's Instagram, whether it's like, pick your lane. And that's, I don't show up on every, like, [00:28:00] I actually, I do have TikTok downloaded right now, but I'll go months without having TikTok on my phone.
And I just run
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Jenna Rogers: Like pick one lane, pick one topic post twice a week. Like, make it super manageable. Uh, because we're
Kelly Duggan: Mm-hmm.
Jenna Rogers: We're, we're
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, a hundred percent. And LinkedIn is one. I, I saw you post about this. You, you wanna get better at posting at LinkedIn? I wanna get post better at posting on LinkedIn. I, um, I always tell people, I think it's like the friendliest social platform to start with is, it's like a little, like a, a people are on their more corporate behavior, right?
Like if you were in the career space, like it's a, if you're nervous about posting, it's a good place to start sharing your, your corporate expertise.
Jenna Rogers: Agreed, agreed. Where, where are you from? Remind me where, where are you?
Kelly Duggan: Oh, I'm from Stanford, Connecticut.
Jenna Rogers: Okay, so I, LinkedIn is Minnesota. Nice.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, 100%. [00:29:00] Which, however, if you've ever had a video go viral on TikTok. I will take Minnesota nice over that. Like boldfaced honesty, when you are in your very early, putting yourself out there days.
Jenna Rogers: True. True.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: That's a very fair. Consuming content on LinkedIn. I think, I mean, consuming content anywhere, that's another pillar of mine. I try to create more than I consume. and I fall into
Kelly Duggan: So important.
Jenna Rogers: very, but like, that's where I'm like, Nope, get off. Just like focus on what you wanna talk about or create, um, and then post it without consuming, like if you can create more than you can consume, that's gonna help you manage the, like men, uh, like mental health side of it to be honest.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I think that's so, so true because there, I think early on in this whole process, uh, and I don't know, when you start a side hustle like you feel like, so social media is so important, and the further along I get, the less I think about it. Um, like the, uh, the amount of time and energy that I would [00:30:00] put in over a real or a TikTok that I put out there.
And now it's like. Record post done. Great. Well whatever happens there. 'cause you have your clients to worry about and like you wanna, you wanna put out content, but you're really worried about your this baby that you've built. Yeah,
Jenna Rogers: the
Kelly Duggan: yeah.
Jenna Rogers: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Exactly. So talk to me a little bit about how you got into this.
'cause it is a niche space like this very specific, how to show up as a communicator at work. How did you even get into landing that niche?
Jenna Rogers: Yeah, civil communication or effective communication in the workplace is so niche. It's getting, it's gaining traction. But when I first started doing this work six years ago, people looked at me like I had two heads. Partly because I was not being an effective communicator when telling people about it.
Uh, like my marketing was just like way over their head. Um. Partly because it was so [00:31:00] new and weird and I had to, you know, I was, I had to keep reminding people of, like, when people first started talking about public relations or human resources, that was a new discipline, a new topic. And now it's just like hr, pr, everyone knows what we're talking about.
Like when it comes to
Kelly Duggan: Right.
Jenna Rogers: effective communication, I am on a mission to make sure that's the same case. Um, but this affinity actually came, I always make the joke, uh. A lot of people struggle with bad partners and like bad boyfriends and like a horrible dating life. Mine, uh, is bad bosses and toxic workplaces. Um, so instead of like bad boyfriends and toxic relationships, mine is bad bosses and toxic workplaces.
Kelly Duggan: pick one, you know?
Jenna Rogers: right. Yeah. That
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: literally my first job at 15, I worked at Dairy Queen for two years and I got fired from Dairy Queen over corporate politics. coworker that I was working with was gossiping about the boss's daughter.
Kelly Duggan: Oh Lord in heaven.
Jenna Rogers: up in that and got pulled into a back room. [00:32:00] Monday got fired. They were like, you cannot tell anyone the reason behind this. We will still give you a reference. I was literally 17, came home like my dad was like, what happened? And I like, I, that was like a hit on my identity. Like I, it was just like this like very interesting moment.
Um, and ever since that was like the first. in the working world. Um, and it's just like I continued to like capture, like collect those moments, if you will, uh, into corporate America. And when I was in college, I discovered this discipline of civil dialogue, um, which is the act of communicating productively.
And when I first discovered this discipline, it was an entire, uh, uh. Minor at the organization. So I did. I at Arizona State University, I got my MA or my bachelor's in communication, my minor in civil communication. Then I went on to get my master's in communication from Northwestern. But when I first learned about [00:33:00] civil dialogue, it was the act of communicating productively from like a. Political, uh, social policy perspective, but as I was working all throughout college, I was like, what if we applied this to the workplace? Um, so my initial idea of civil dialogue was very different than what I do now. Uh, well, I shouldn't say very different, but pretty different. Um, maybe one day I will get there, but I don't necessarily know if the market is ready.
For actual civil dialogue in the workplace. Um, that was an interesting point to be doing the work at career civility during 2020 when a lot of discourse was coming out, um, around DEI, around, you know, policies, procedures, and equities, and I was trying to use civil communication. Um, and civil dialogue through that.
But again, I don't necessarily think the market's ready for that. Um, and where I've gained a lot of foothold is communicating productively, um, in email, communicating productively in meetings, uh, during feedback, conversations, one-on-one. [00:34:00] Uh. In your performance reviews, uh, with clients, managing different stakeholders, leadership, difficult bosses.
So I've been able to distill down this idea of like civil dialogue in the workplace, which is what I wrote my thesis on into very tangible. Effective email communication. Like, if you wanna response to this email, you need to communicate productively, and here's how you do it. Here's the tips scripts, templates. So it's taken me six years to distill down the messaging into like tangible action, um, templates and scripts. But I also think that's what makes my work so unique and effective is because communication is this like elusive idea. Um, but when I'm able to put it into action, um, and something that people can, you know. If they go to a workshop of mine or if they see a reel on social media, they can directly implement it into their workday. That's what makes it productive. Um, so that's the long-winded answer of how I got started doing this, this [00:35:00] work.
Kelly Duggan: Absolutely fascinating because I, I'm a big believer in that communication is your superpower at work, period. The end, like
Jenna Rogers: Yep.
Kelly Duggan: having worked in HR. The, and, and specifically in learning and development, like one of the number one pieces of feedback was they need to communicate and, um, they need to executive presence, right?
Which honestly is communication.
Jenna Rogers: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: When you, it's communication maybe beyond just your words, but like your whole presence of, of how you communicate. Uh, and that is really the thing that unlocks opportunities for people, uh, and. So I think for anyone out there who is trying to get promoted, trying to, to figure out how to succeed in the corporate world, f follow Jenna.
'cause she really does put out some incredible, very actionable scripts and content to be able to be able to do that. And I think that it's something that everybody needs.
Jenna Rogers: Well, thank you. And you know, [00:36:00] sadly, but also, uh, I guess gratefully I. People don't teach you how to do this, right? People don't teach you what good communication looks like. They're giving you feedback on your performance review, saying like, you need to improve your executive presence, or You're not a good communicator.
And you're like, well, what does that mean? Like, what does that look
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: well, like, like they. don't know either. 'cause we're all learning through osmosis. And, um, what worked for someone might not work for you because everyone has different communication styles and tenure and experience. And so, you know, that's where vividly I remember my first position, you know, corporate position here in Chicago of like getting feedback. Like I got pulled into a conference room one day and it was, it was feedback on my management style and how I manage someone. And it was, you're too abrasive. I was like,
Kelly Duggan: Hmm.
Jenna Rogers: you have any examples?
Like, and there was just no examples, there was no feedback as to how I could improve how I'm communicating or managing this person. It was just like, well, you're [00:37:00] too abrasive and like people don't wanna work with you if you're abrasive. And that was just like so not helpful and unproductive. So that's why I always say like I go through these situations that we can help people who come after me because. actually, there's been a lot of discourse and dialogue in the zeitgeist right now with like Gen Z and how Gen Z is just getting totally obliterated, which millennials got the same heat as well coming into the workplace. So
Kelly Duggan: yeah.
Jenna Rogers: nothing new. Um, but it's like, okay, so if you wanna give them, you know, if you wanna criticize them, well what are you doing to train them?
Like what are you doing to help them? Um, because unlike millennials and Gen X, where we were just like, okay, we'll be better, we'll be better, we'll be better, we'll improve, we'll put our heads down, we'll work harder. Gen Z's like, well. Like, show me how I need to do better. And on one hand you gotta put a little work in.
On the other hand. They're right. Like, so I'm getting a little bit of, uh, momentum and like my foothold in the market of like training younger professionals on how to communicate, especially in a world that's moving [00:38:00] so quick. Um, even on the fundamentals of email communication or like. to conduct a virtual meeting.
You know, how do you show up in that because they're getting graded and fired, um, on these pieces of feedback, and yet no one set those expectations on the front end. And like that is a pivotal piece. Building a business and hiring new people is you have to train and set these expectations. Um, and if they're falling short of these expectations, great.
Put 'em on a performance improvement plan. Manage up or manage out. But like if you are penalizing them for expectations that we're never communicated, I think that's on the employer.
Kelly Duggan: I could not agree with you more, I think, and that is, I think, an epidemic across corporate America of non-specific feedback. And it, it, it's a real, I truly think could be the one, the most [00:39:00] transformative change that could happen, um, is just getting really clear about what's expected. Understanding what that looks like and telling people specifically how they missed the market.
And it sounds, it, it, it sounds so stupidly simple. It really is that stupidly simple. Um, but the corporate politics, I think can be really just clumped into people not getting that straight. Um.
Jenna Rogers: The Corporate Pol yet someone, I did an interview for a magazine earlier this morning and she was like, what's the number one communication mistake you see? And I was like, that people assume expectations are communicated because to your point, like, and I actually think it's 'cause we're just so busy, we don't have time to. Double check and be like, okay, did Brittany know that she was supposed to be doing that? Like we just kind of send it off and we, you know. But you also, this is where parenting and parenting toddlers really informs the work that I'm doing on a daily basis, because we're potty training my son right now, and I remember this when potty trained my daughter, it's like you have to tell [00:40:00] them seven times.
Okay, then you flush, then you wash your hands, like wash your hands, wash your hands, like. We are just toddlers and bigger bodies. Right. But, and it's not because of our limited capacity of like our brains, but it's just, we're so busy. Like we have phone calls and we have slacks, and we have all these pings.
So like if you said something, we have heard it, but we are also reading a slack at the same time. And then we had an email and then we had to jump on a meeting. So like what you told them needs to be reiterated. So like the communications or the expectations need to be communicated, need to be communicated, likely communicated.
And then because we all have different learning styles and because. Our attention spans are getting shorter. We likely have to do it in different modalities and channels.
Kelly Duggan: Yeah, and for ourselves as well, like as a manager in that role, but then also. If you are not getting that information, you have to be so vocal to be able to obtain that because it's, it's easy to sit there and be like, well, this isn't happening and this is frustrating. [00:41:00] And, you know, things should change and they should, like, we could argue that until we're blow in the face, but you're the one who's gonna be penalized.
Um, if not. And so it's like, okay, well what can we do to get ahead of this? Whether or not this is the situation that should exist, this is the situation that we are in. So how can we. As individuals show up in the workplace and politely and authoritatively get the answers that we need to be able to succeed, I think is really important.
Jenna Rogers: Brilliant. And I also think you summed up. three different generations in that explanation because Gen Z is at the point where we complain till we're blue in the face and we expect things to change. Then you have Gen X where it's like if you see a problem, you go in and fix it, and then you see millennials to your point of like, okay, well here's the problem.
Here's some solutions. Here's how we think about it, right? Like there we're seeing this just like evolution throughout the different generations in the workplace and how they handle. Problem solving. And so I will take what I said [00:42:00] earlier about like training and setting those expectations, but I'll also double down by leading by example, um, and helping them, uh, or holding them accountable for making those changes and coming with a solution.
You will always notice in my, uh, communication advice that you should always come prepared with. Ideas, ideas, solutions. Because even if you don't have the authority or the ability, ability to make those changes, um, we don't know what we don't know. So if you're able to bring an idea that might not get implemented today, but maybe next year when there's a new leader in town or whatever it looks like it might be. Um, so that's always something. I think that brings it back to productive communication in the workplace is like always. Have ideas or solutions or just get curious about things. 'cause that moves it from complaining we're blue in the face to actually making a difference and problem solving.
Kelly Duggan: Oh my gosh. I love that. Jenna, I know we're, we're coming up on our time, [00:43:00] but I have one more question for you.
Jenna Rogers: Yeah.
Kelly Duggan: Um, you know, the podcast is called Love What You Do. I'm on a mission to help people love what they do and to be able to land jobs that they are going to wake up on Monday morning and love going to work.
How can people leverage communication to be able to love what they do more?
Jenna Rogers: Oh man, what a brilliant question. And what a novel mission as well to love what you do, uh, and get paid for it. Like, that's the dream. Uh, the dream. How can you leverage communication? Well, I, I actually teach this in one of my online courses Worth at Work, which is very career coach ask of me, even though I'm not a career coach, but, and maybe they can work with you to figure out this piece.
And then they work with me to actually communicate it to, Their employer, but really understanding like what is your personal value statement? Like what do you value in this season? It could change, we could rip it up and throw it out the window. It could evolve, [00:44:00] but like in this season of life, what do you value? How is that showing up in your day-to-day? Where's the delta? Um, where do you need to set boundaries to actually obtain, you know, have the capacity? I talked about capacity at the beginning of this. Um, I actually like cooking. I like thinking of meals. Right. But if I don't have the capacity, then it's a burden.
So I need to work on setting boundaries my days or weeks to allow myself to nourish myself with food, right? And my family. So what's your personal value statement? Um, what are, what's working well towards it? What are the deltas? How can we set boundaries around that? And of that, by the way, comes back to communication and what you say yes to at work, what you say yes to at the school with your children, what you say no to, um, that is communicating.
These are my priorities. I can handle this, but I have to scale back on this. Um, so once you've identified that, which again is where I [00:45:00] think like the work that you're doing is so pivotal, um, gives them the data to then be able to come to me and learn how to communicate that data. 'cause you have to have the understanding, um, and you have to have that conviction as to what you need in this season.
And then you work on actually communicating that and communicating it in a productive way that makes change.
Kelly Duggan: And communicating it to yourself first so that you can remind yourself that internal mantra of what's important.
Jenna Rogers: Yes.
Kelly Duggan: it.
Jenna Rogers: Which a lot of us are just too busy to do. Uh,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: it's really hard to sit in those emotions. Like it's
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: sit in those emotions. It's really hard to find the time. Like I don't, again, I don't have time to sit with my emotions, nor do I have time to create content on social media. So
Kelly Duggan: Yeah. Nor do you have time to sit. Really.
Jenna Rogers: Exactly. Like if dinner's on the table, I'm not doing anything else, um,
Kelly Duggan: Yeah.
Jenna Rogers: at the end of a workday. So, yeah, it's, I'm not saying that it's easy, but like, again, if you have this like north star pie in the sky, [00:46:00] like add that to it.
Kelly Duggan: I love it. Jenna, thank you so much for taking the time to join the podcast today. Where can people find you?
Jenna Rogers: You can find me on Instagram at career civility, career civility at TikTok, at career civility, career civility.com. I do work with people one-on-one. It's just like one-off. If you wanna talk about like a workplace situation. I do workshops for organizations, small businesses, large businesses, anywhere in between.
Um, and then I also do consulting as well, which is like if you have a, you know, deeply rooted issue or you just need some personnel support or you know, your team needs help. Communicating with external stakeholders. Um, we can have conversations around that. But yeah, one-on-one, um, workshops, consulting, and then I have a lot of free stuff on my socials, my blog, my weekly newsletter, so absolutely take advantage of that.
'cause money's tight, right?
Kelly Duggan: I know. Seriously, if you're listening to this, [00:47:00] go follow Jenna. Take advantage of those free resources. Communication are the building blocks that you are going to build the career you love on, just like you just shared. So thank you so much. I loved getting to chat today. Hopefully maybe we can have you back 'cause I feel like I've got a whole other hour of questions for you, so.
Jenna Rogers: I got
Kelly Duggan: Alright, sounds great. Thanks so much, Jenna.
Jenna Rogers: Thank you.
